Banning Elder Powers for PCs
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Displaying output for plurality votingOpen Votes
Proposal Type: Bylaw Revision
Opened: 19-May-2004 1:00AM EDT
Closing: 19-May-2004 1:00AM EDT
PROPOSAL: that the following to be added to the bylaws:============================================
Character Regulation Bylaws, Section 11: Banning of Elder Level Powers
For Player Characters (PCs), the highest attainable level of a discipline
shall be advanced.
============================================
PC's currently in possession of such powers are eligible for a refund of the
points spent at their Storytellers discression or may retire to NPC status.
- William E. Genich
- CM, Kenosha: Memento Mori
Running Sneakers StorePatike
File / Document: No file attachments for this vote.
Ballot Options For
Abstain
Against
1 out of 160 eligible voters cast their ballot
For
55% (60 votes)
Against
38% (42 votes)
Abstain
7% (8 votes)
| Chronicle/Position | Voted for | Comment |
|---|---|---|
| New York City, NY - USA, Kings of New York | For | get the hell out of my house! |
| St. Petersburg, FL - USA, Faces of Change | Against | The best way to limit Elder Disciplines is to limit 8th Gens, not ban them. Elder Disciplines are powerful and can be game unbalancing if allowed to be, but so is FAP and a myriad of Advanceds Disciplines out of Clan. Laws of the Night is part of MET book series including the Sabbat Guide, Camarilla Guide, Anarch Guide, Dark Epics and ST's Compendium. Each of them has Laws of the Night title in silver on the cover. If we allow all the other write ups from these books, then Elders should be allowed as well. Is a Ventrue character wonky because they have Fortitude in Clan? How about a Brujah for Celerity and Potence? Tagging players as powergamers because of Disciplines they choose is a little extreme. Diablerie is part of the Vampire Genre. Childer are destined to rise up against their Sires for power. Three Antedilluvians had the deed done on them because of that reason. |
| Los Angeles, CA - USA, La Sangre De Los Angeles | Abstain | we won't have elder powers in our game regardless, even from visitors, so othres may do as they wish. |
| Saint Paul, MN - USA, Obsidian Towers | For | Over half the games out there have this as a house rule anyway. |
| Iowa City, IA - USA, Fields of Rage | For | |
| Berkeley, CA - USA, Wasting the Dawn | Against | With controls elder powers are not bad, but currently the controls are not in place. Heather's idea is a good one, but *shrug* |
| Stockton, CA - USA, Stockton by Night | Against | |
| Milwaukee, WI - USA, Nocturnal Rapture | For | |
| Tampa, FL - USA, Tampa Bay by Night | Against | (tounge in cheek)Tarnation! You damnyankees can't tell us we don't have the right to govern ourselves, this org wasn't built like that, we's 'possed ta be soveriegn games, allied but seperate, and don't hafta give up our elder powers if we don't want too... sounds just like ya did before the damn war of northern agression. (tounge out) I was vhemently against elders at one point, but I've seen it used well. Maybe not every player/character should be allowed to have them, nor all of them be allowed in play, but that's the STs responsibility to control. Each games' for themselves. |
| Duluth, MN - USA, Thicker than Blood | For | It needs to be done...period...makes an already unlevel playing field for 8th gens even more unlevel on a game mechanics level |
| Philadelphia, PA - USA, Nusquam | For | |
| Chicago, IL - USA, Dark Requiem | For | Waaaaay too much confusion occurs when something works one way in one game, and not at all in another, so the solution of allowing games who want them to have them really doesn't fit, if we are all playing the same game....Bill, I know this vote gets thrown in the ring once a year, and I want to thank you for reminding everyone what the name of the organization is.... |
| Fredericksburg, VA - USA, Caine's Chosen: Liberty in Death | Against | I've played with and ST'ed for people with these powers, and I've never seen any problems whatsoever. They don't bother me, and I'd rather not have Council dictate what I permit or don't permit at that level, especially since it deviates from the books. We DON'T just use Laws of the Night and nothing else, and it's disingenuous to pretend that it really is the basis for our game. Look at Two-gun mojo, Paths, Influences, Weapon stats, etc. All of those things are from books other than LOTN:R. I can't and won't support this. |
| Indianapolis, IN - USA, Stars Never Rise | Against | Until this organization has a Universal set of House rules, this prop is pointless. Elder powers today.. tommorow it will be somthing equally trivial.If we don't want it in our game we just say NO at the door. Its not the end of the world, they eventually get over it. In the gathered opinions of my illustrious players... If this organization spent even half the time it spends on rules and regulations, and used that time to contribute twords OUR UNIVERSAL story, we woulden't have to keep using so many darn bandaids to cover what is so obviously a much needed surgery. ---Indianapolis, sick of the patchwork |
| Winona, MN - USA, Winona Dark Haven | For | As an organization we are roleplaying Laws of the Night (modern era) not Dark Ages. In the modern nights (a.k.a. the time of the Thinbloods) Elders and their powers are becoming fewer and more scarce. I think that this ban will help keep us within genre for the time/era that we are roleplaying. |
| Auburn, CA - USA, Lux Tenebras | Against | Individual games can restrict pc's from using elder disciplines in thier chronicle right now. This just further stifles a games right to choose how to manage thier affairs. |
| Norwalk, CT - USA, Rails of Revolution | Against | |
| San Francisco, CA - USA, Always Comes Evening | For | |
| Providence, RI - USA, Hidden Flame | Against | I think it would be much more appropriate to come up with a set of guidelines to limit them, rather than outright ban them. And for the record, if this vote does not pass, I'll put up the proposition to establish said guidelines myself. :) |
| Atlanta, GA - USA, Whispers of Atlanta | Against | Master, Ascendant, and Methuselah level disciplines are the tools of the STs for NPCs. Elder level disciplines, when allowed by responsible STs in good games, are not problematic. As Elder level disciplines are no more powerful than many Basic, Intermiediate, and Advanced level disciplines, I see no reason to ban them on an organisation-wide level. Elder level disciplines represent the fine-tuning of a clan's innate powers by its eldest for use in very specific situations. Introducing this aspect of genre should be the decision of the individual chronicle. |
| Fargo, ND - USA, Within Shadow's Reach | Against | I think each game should run what they want on elder disciplines, My game doesn't want them, if some other game does more power to them. If that game has them and I don't like it then I don't play there |
| Cleveland, OH - USA, Carpe Noctum | For | As our *main* rules are from LoTN:R, not the Cam or Sabbat guides, I feel fully that we should add no additional perks to the wholly perk laden 8th generation. |
| Cincinnati, OH - USA, Shadows of Cincinnati | Against | As Dark Haven states, we are in the time of thin Blood and the weakening of the Curses of Caine. One of those Curses was the Stratification of Generation and the powers available to kindred of Differing Generations. This curse was levied by Caine at the Fall of the Second City - it is the weakiening of these Curses that allows for the Thin Bloods to develop new Powers, 8th Generation Kindred to access powers, that were before this time, unavailable to them. Everyone enjoys touting the flag of Genre Standards, but it is sad to see that these standards are not a complete picture of the WOD as it pertains to Vampire, The Masquerade. |
| Columbus, OH - USA, Columbus in Darkness | Against | |
| Springfield, IL - USA, Capitol City Cauldron | For | |
| Washington, DC - USA, Shadows on the Mall | Against | When we have a set of consistant house rules for all of OWBN, then I'd be willing to even consider this. We've had PC's with elder powers on and off for a couple years now, and have never found them to be unbalancing, or genre breaking. We also have strict restrictions on them: one power only, in-clan only, and long learning times. As always, if one of our characters comes into your game with something on thier sheet you dislike tell them ''That doesn't work here.'' If they don't like that, tell them '' You can't play that character here.'' If you still have a problem, contact us, and we'll deal with it. |
| Phoenix, AZ - USA, Secundus Surrectum | Abstain | Meh. Either or. I've not seen them 'destroy' RP, or problem solving skills. I've not seen anyone roll a game with them. We have them available in our game, yet no one has them. It takes them a FULL YEAR of spending XP each month, and it must be in Clan. *shrugs* Ah well. |
| Kenosha, WI - USA, Memento Mori | For | |
| Green Bay, WI - USA, Shattered Dreams | For | |
| Harrisonburg, VA: Death in the Valley | For | |
| Iowa City, IA - USA, L'Ange Noir | For | 13-8th gen all should only have up to advanced disciplines. That's how it's been since the very first edition of the game and there's no reason for the LARP to be any diffrent. |
| Northern Virginia, VA - USA, Night Falls | Against | See commentary from Shadows on the Mall...Elder Powers have not ruined our game in any way, in fact, they have added a lot to it. |
| Annapolis, MD - USA, Vitae Aeternus | Against | Despite the fact that SMD does not allow these disciplines on character's sheets. Chronicle soveriengty has been a key principle of our chronicle. We and each chronicle can tell player to leave their elder disciplines at the door. But we do not feel council has a right to dictate large scale rules such as this on individual chronicles. We must there for vote against this article on the principle that each game should have the ability to govern its own business. |
| Baltimore, MD - USA, Dark Harbor | For | |
| AHC 1 | Against | I am ambivalent as to whether or not PCs should be able to buy elder powers. There are benefits and drawbacks. The reason I am voting ''no'' on this proposal is because this is the third time this vote has come up during my membership in the organization. I am honestly tired of seeing it, and I truly hope that this is the last time it comes up, regardless of how it turns out. |
| AHC 2 | Against | I have been asked to clarify my position. OWBN has Article 1. Until Article 1 is changed to not allow chronicles the ability to create their own house rules or until a group of standardized house rules comes into effect, then we shouldn't be tramping on the rights of chronicles to do as they wish per Article 1. I vote this way because I trust the games who want Elder Powers to use them wisely. Trust being the key word. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | BAN THEM!!!BAN THEM!!! BAN THEM!!! BAN THEM!!! BAN THEM!!! BAN THEM!!! There are too many good points on ''why'' to list. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | BAN THEM!!!BAN THEM!!! BAN THEM!!! BAN THEM!!! BAN THEM!!! BAN THEM!!! There are too many good points on ''why'' to list. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | I believe that regardless of it being a typo or not in the White Wolf books, they've reiterated it enough times that it has become the rule.Since everyone is so keen on not deviating from the books, DON'T DEVIATE FROM THE BOOKS. *shrugs* If you want to ban them in your own chronicle, that's your choice. But let the chronicles that want to have them have them. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | I believe that regardless of it being a typo or not in the White Wolf books, they've reiterated it enough times that it has become the rule.Since everyone is so keen on not deviating from the books, DON'T DEVIATE FROM THE BOOKS. *shrugs* If you want to ban them in your own chronicle, that's your choice. But let the chronicles that want to have them have them. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | Love, Spark of Rage, Personal Armor, Earth Control, Chain the Psyche, Prediction, Quickness, Soul Mask, Mass Quell are just a few of the names. I don't see how these are not nearly as powerful as being PFA. PFA does not help you when you are three points blood bound to me, cannot think bad things about me without falling over and dying and can't catch me cause I can literally teleport. *shakes head* This World of Darkness is not supposed to be fair. I do not live in the World of Darkness. My character is supposed to be at a disadvantage. The idea that the aforementioned powers (which are only a few) are not as powerful as basics, is absurd. And the idea that PCs having them can further a story which cannot be furthered without them upsets me greatly. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | Love, Spark of Rage, Personal Armor, Earth Control, Chain the Psyche, Prediction, Quickness, Soul Mask, Mass Quell are just a few of the names. I don't see how these are not nearly as powerful as being PFA. PFA does not help you when you are three points blood bound to me, cannot think bad things about me without falling over and dying and can't catch me cause I can literally teleport. *shakes head* This World of Darkness is not supposed to be fair. I do not live in the World of Darkness. My character is supposed to be at a disadvantage. The idea that the aforementioned powers (which are only a few) are not as powerful as basics, is absurd. And the idea that PCs having them can further a story which cannot be furthered without them upsets me greatly. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | Kenosha Vampire votes based on my advice on garou issues, I am taking Bill's advice on this issue |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | Kenosha Vampire votes based on my advice on garou issues, I am taking Bill's advice on this issue |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | Elder disciplines belong in the hands of ST's and NPC's to enhance storytelling. Either you believe this or you don't, I just hope people don't make this a ''chronicle sovriegnty'' issue. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | Elder disciplines belong in the hands of ST's and NPC's to enhance storytelling. Either you believe this or you don't, I just hope people don't make this a ''chronicle sovriegnty'' issue. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | Still have the psychological scars from the 7th gen elder power purge. Game of dark horror, not of cool powers (s or z) |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | Still have the psychological scars from the 7th gen elder power purge. Game of dark horror, not of cool powers (s or z) |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | I still have yet to hear a valid argument of why we should make 8th gen PCs even more powerful than the rest of the game. This game is not about furkin dots, it's about role-playing. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | I still have yet to hear a valid argument of why we should make 8th gen PCs even more powerful than the rest of the game. This game is not about furkin dots, it's about role-playing. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Abstain | Elder disciplines belong in the hands of ST's and NPC's to enhance storytelling. In the modern nights (a.k.a. the time of the Thinbloods) Elders and their powers are becoming fewer and more scarce. there is already too much of a race to get to 8th gen in this org, and rampant diablere is both out of genre and puts a strain on rp. it is clear that many players already feel that ''he who has the most traits wins'' and the allowing of elder level powers puts players (not only characters) at even more of a totally unneccessary disadvantage. the wod is unfair, owbn shouldn't be. As so many before us stated. We are against this and would normally vote YES, however, with an issue that directly involves the Vamp games, we are choosing to abstain, especially since BOTH of our local Vamp games voted NO. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Abstain | Elder disciplines belong in the hands of ST's and NPC's to enhance storytelling. In the modern nights (a.k.a. the time of the Thinbloods) Elders and their powers are becoming fewer and more scarce. there is already too much of a race to get to 8th gen in this org, and rampant diablere is both out of genre and puts a strain on rp. it is clear that many players already feel that ''he who has the most traits wins'' and the allowing of elder level powers puts players (not only characters) at even more of a totally unneccessary disadvantage. the wod is unfair, owbn shouldn't be. As so many before us stated. We are against this and would normally vote YES, however, with an issue that directly involves the Vamp games, we are choosing to abstain, especially since BOTH of our local Vamp games voted NO. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | If you need Elder powers, I don't need your gaming style. I'm all about keeping things in genre, but I'm also in support of keeping this org somewhat balanced. If you want to go by the books, read Page 14 of LotN:R under ''Do What Works for You''. As part of this organization, that should be taken as ''Do What Works for Us'', and right now, I really don't feel PC's having Elder disciplines works for ''us''. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | If you need Elder powers, I don't need your gaming style. I'm all about keeping things in genre, but I'm also in support of keeping this org somewhat balanced. If you want to go by the books, read Page 14 of LotN:R under ''Do What Works for You''. As part of this organization, that should be taken as ''Do What Works for Us'', and right now, I really don't feel PC's having Elder disciplines works for ''us''. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | See L'Ange Noir as one of the best of many reasons. Another reason is the 8th generation Caitiff with FAP in-clan and Personal Armor that recently visited from a game in Ohio. We can't get rid of all the cheese with this, but we can certainly cut off a slice of it. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | See L'Ange Noir as one of the best of many reasons. Another reason is the 8th generation Caitiff with FAP in-clan and Personal Armor that recently visited from a game in Ohio. We can't get rid of all the cheese with this, but we can certainly cut off a slice of it. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | Now we don't trust the players in our organization to role-play if they have access to the abilities in the core rule books. Maybe we should just start screening applicants, and issue them numbers and cards, that way we know who we can trust and who we can't. Sorry, this whole argument has made me tired. But I still love Big Brother. ;) |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | Now we don't trust the players in our organization to role-play if they have access to the abilities in the core rule books. Maybe we should just start screening applicants, and issue them numbers and cards, that way we know who we can trust and who we can't. Sorry, this whole argument has made me tired. But I still love Big Brother. ;) |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | Again, yes! I proposed something like this myself, long before there was this voting system (though it didn't go anywhere at the time). 8th gens were never intended to have powers above level 5, Advanced. Yes, it says so 'in the book' but our core book for Vampire is LOTN: Revised, which does not contain Elder powers. Lastly, I again make the historical argument: The reason PCs are limited to 8th Generation was so that PCs could not have Elder level powers. The reason this was done is that there were several disruptive 7th Gen PCs at the time in OWBN who had Elder powers (non-published powers, as the MET Elder Powers hadn't been published yet). |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | Again, yes! I proposed something like this myself, long before there was this voting system (though it didn't go anywhere at the time). 8th gens were never intended to have powers above level 5, Advanced. Yes, it says so 'in the book' but our core book for Vampire is LOTN: Revised, which does not contain Elder powers. Lastly, I again make the historical argument: The reason PCs are limited to 8th Generation was so that PCs could not have Elder level powers. The reason this was done is that there were several disruptive 7th Gen PCs at the time in OWBN who had Elder powers (non-published powers, as the MET Elder Powers hadn't been published yet). |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | there is already too much of a race to get to 8th gen in this org, and rampant diablery is both out of genre and puts a strain on rp. it is clear that many players already feel that ''he who has the most traits wins'' and the allowing of elder level powers puts players (not only characters) at even more of a totally unneccessary disadvantage. the wod is unfair, owbn shouldn't be. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | there is already too much of a race to get to 8th gen in this org, and rampant diablery is both out of genre and puts a strain on rp. it is clear that many players already feel that ''he who has the most traits wins'' and the allowing of elder level powers puts players (not only characters) at even more of a totally unneccessary disadvantage. the wod is unfair, owbn shouldn't be. |
| LONE | Against | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Abstain | PCs have never been allowed to use Elder disciplines in VbN. But we do permit them to purchase them, for travelling purposes. I don't see why they would need them, but I suppose they do add a little uncertinty to an already uncertain setting. However, it won't break my heart if they go away for the PCs. Nor will it particular overjoy me. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Abstain | PCs have never been allowed to use Elder disciplines in VbN. But we do permit them to purchase them, for travelling purposes. I don't see why they would need them, but I suppose they do add a little uncertinty to an already uncertain setting. However, it won't break my heart if they go away for the PCs. Nor will it particular overjoy me. |