Outlaw of Elder level powers for over 7th gen
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Displaying output for plurality votingOpen Votes
Proposal Type: Bylaw Revision
Opened: 06-Oct-2002 1:00AM EDT
Closing: 17-Oct-2002 1:00AM EDT
Proposal-Outlaw of Elder level powers for Kindred ofless than 7th Generation.
It is proposed that to further game balance and
cohesion across a Global linked organization that
Elder level powers (Dot 6 and above) be banned from
the possession of Kindred less than 7th Generation.
For PC's the highest attainable level of a discipline
shall be advanced.
PC's currently in possession of such powers are
eligible for a refund of the points spent at their
Storytellers discression.
Hereafter the Chart for Max Disciplines shall be as
follows;
Generation Max Discipline Level;
15th First Intermedate
14th Second Intermedate
13th to 8th Advanced (dot 5)
7th Elder (dot 6)
6th Master (dot 7)
5th Ascendent (dot 8)
4th Methuseleh (dot 9)
File / Document: No file attachments for this vote.
Ballot Options For
Abstain
Against
1 out of 159 eligible voters cast their ballot
For
52% (44 votes)
Against
48% (40 votes)
Abstain
0% (0 votes)
| Chronicle/Position | Voted for | Comment |
|---|---|---|
| New York City, NY - USA, Kings of New York | For | Until the trait max is changed to 15 for all gens, 8th gen has way too much of an advantage already and doesn't need more, not to mention the horrendous potential for abuse this brings up. Just imagine shade with conceal, imprint, soul mask and mind blank. Or Jack the Toreador with Love, Quickness, Clairvoyance and Prediction. 'nuff said. |
| St. Petersburg, FL - USA, Faces of Change | Against | This is a House Rules Issue and not something that Council should control. |
| Saint Paul, MN - USA, Obsidian Towers | For | |
| Berkeley, CA - USA, Wasting the Dawn | Against | Things that would change my vote on this ballot: -Allowing 8th Gen. NPCs to have Elder powers. -Making 9th generation the lowest PCs could be. While I understand the myriad reasons for disallowing the powers for 8th gens, or for disbelieving in the PC/NPC distinction, I think forbidding Elder powers from 8th gens skews the WoD demographics in a way that I don't like. My hat is off to those of you who are voting according to impact upon the game or relations with neighboring chronicles; I'm voting based upon my view of WoD genre. |
| Stockton, CA - USA, Stockton by Night | Against | Down with Federalism! |
| Milwaukee, WI - USA, Nocturnal Rapture | Against | The Milwaukee staff Was split 50/50 on the vote, so we polled our players. The majority of our players believe that each game should be allowed to decide for themselves. I personally am in favor of this proposal but i must vote for my chronical and not just myself. :( |
| Tampa, FL - USA, Tampa Bay by Night | For | Well, it's obvious that we as STs don't trust each other to be responsible, and I guess that everyone has their reasons. And it's most likely not the local/nearby STs we don't trust, but those sneaky bastards from (insert region here), though individual mileage may vary. I think these powers could be used to add to a story if used responsibly, unfortunatly the potential for abuse is very large, even locally. I/We make judgement calls on which players can be trusted with what all the time and sometimes we're wrong. I think it is something that should be left to each chronicle, and we had even implemented such under tight controls, to see how it would affect our game. However, the majority of Tampa's staff feels that if we have the chance to remove the potental for abuse across OWbN we should do so, and I will stand with them in that belief. |
| Chicago, IL - USA, Dark Requiem | For | In C:DRs last game, I had polled the players what they thought about the issue. Most of them were for this. A few of the older players remember when, in OWbN, some had to give up their 7th Gen PCs to balance the game and to get rid of Elder level(Dot 6) powers. If this vote fails, then we are just letting those powers back in. Many concerns of the players is that this would unbalance the game. Some were concerned that this would just let people with these characters be able to teach Advanced. That his would make the Mentor background absolete. Teaching of Advanced should be in the hands of 7th gens only. Plus keeping with the tabletop rules that no generation has above dot 5 until they become 7th. I have changed my vote for in favor. BTW, there is always Article 2. |
| Fredericksburg, VA - USA, Caine's Chosen: Liberty in Death | Against | |
| Winona, MN - USA, Winona Dark Haven | For | The players of our game don't want to have to deal with this coming to our game, or when they go to one of many OWBN games that doesn't regulate the sick amount of cheese already present. No one can tell me with the rampent amounts of Tham, Protean, Obten, and everything else that ANYONE seems to have acess to, that they really need this as well. |
| Norwalk, CT - USA, Rails of Revolution | Against | |
| San Francisco, CA - USA, Always Comes Evening | Against | While we believe that this decision is operable as one on the level of individual games, ACE does not allow PCs to have Elder powers, though we do allow PCs to purchase them for travel to games which do permit them.Our primary objections to this Proposal are in line with Sacramento's statement. We find the restrictions on NPCs imposed by this Proposal to be unnecessary, and possibly even out of place in a proposal which appears nominally intended to restrict something from PCs. |
| Providence, RI - USA, Hidden Flame | Against | This can and should be handled by each chronicle. No problems so far have arisen from the use of these powers (at least no more than from the use of any other power). Any ST who does not wish these in his game can just say no. Keep it on the chronicle level. AMENDMENT: I would, however, support a resolution that said only 7th gen and higher could teach Advanced disciplines as Out of Clan. |
| Cleveland, OH - USA, Carpe Noctum | Against | After considering the chart, I can no longer support this proposal, though I do not support Elder Powers. |
| Cincinnati, OH - USA, Shadows of Cincinnati | Against | Bring me my Braodsword.......and clear understanding. |
| Columbus, OH - USA, Columbus in Darkness | Against | |
| Springfield, IL - USA, Capitol City Cauldron | Against | The written text is acceptable but ''new'' chart is not. |
| Washington, DC - USA, Shadows on the Mall | Against | No. No. No. |
| Phoenix, AZ - USA, Secundus Surrectum | For | |
| Gimli, MB - Canada, Sang Nordique | For | People don't need another reason to want to play 8th generation characters. There's enough of a power difference already. |
| Iowa City, IA - USA, L'Ange Noir | For | We already rejected 7th gen pcs for a reason, because the power discrepancy added nothing and did cause a problem. elder disciplines in pc hands are bad for OWBN, as we learned to our sorrow once before. I'd hate to have to have the new folks learn the same pain again. |
| Northern Virginia, VA - USA, Night Falls | Against | We have allowed 8th Generation PC's to develop one in clan elder power, however the IC and OOC requirements make it much more difficult that '' I spend 12 xp''. There is also the issue of all the revisions to various coord level npc's who have taken advantage of the current levels, as well as all of the level four and five mentor npc's who will now have to be at least 7th generation to teach the advanced disciplines that the book says they can.Then again, I also think advanced disciplines should be much less common on character sheets. In a system that's broken, chopping away the last bit of broken material isn't much of a fix. |
| Annapolis, MD - USA, Vitae Aeternus | Against | |
| Edwardsville, IL - USA, Caught in Eternal Twilight | Against | While we have agreed with the other Illinois Chronicles to remove Elder Disciplines from PC hands, we do not believe it is proper to dictate to other Chronicles whether they may allow or disallow Elder disciplines. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | Elder disciplines do not belong in the hands of any PC, period.The current proposal does not limit the abilities of NPC's, nor shoul it. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | Elder disciplines do not belong in the hands of any PC, period.The current proposal does not limit the abilities of NPC's, nor shoul it. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | For one reason only - I would never want my players to be ambushed at another chronicle by a power they weren't even aware existed. The majority of my players play for fun, and own maybe the LotN:R book if they are lucky. The majority could not tell you the name of more than one Discipline above Advanced. Keep the cheese in the hands of STs. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | For one reason only - I would never want my players to be ambushed at another chronicle by a power they weren't even aware existed. The majority of my players play for fun, and own maybe the LotN:R book if they are lucky. The majority could not tell you the name of more than one Discipline above Advanced. Keep the cheese in the hands of STs. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | This is a no brainer. And not a ''live and let live'' issue. Decide if you, as an ST, feels that the world we play in is better with PC's possessing such things, or these rare and powerful abilities being the rare stuff of legend-the domain of the frightening elders that run everything. Vote how you want our world to be, not as a statment about Chron. Sov. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | This is a no brainer. And not a ''live and let live'' issue. Decide if you, as an ST, feels that the world we play in is better with PC's possessing such things, or these rare and powerful abilities being the rare stuff of legend-the domain of the frightening elders that run everything. Vote how you want our world to be, not as a statment about Chron. Sov. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | The ST staff of Winnipeg was voted in with the policy that there would be no 8th Gen Elder Disciplines allowed in our game. When this prop came up, I discussed it with the other ST and the majority of player base, and the only feedback I got was to vote against Elder levels for PC's within the org. We agree with Kings of New York that 8th Gens already have enough going for them, and do not need this on top of the other perks they get. Though we do appreciate the fact that chronicles have the right to play as they please, we feel that this is something that should be kept at a cap throughout the organization, much like the 8xp per month or 8th gen for PC caps. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | The ST staff of Winnipeg was voted in with the policy that there would be no 8th Gen Elder Disciplines allowed in our game. When this prop came up, I discussed it with the other ST and the majority of player base, and the only feedback I got was to vote against Elder levels for PC's within the org. We agree with Kings of New York that 8th Gens already have enough going for them, and do not need this on top of the other perks they get. Though we do appreciate the fact that chronicles have the right to play as they please, we feel that this is something that should be kept at a cap throughout the organization, much like the 8xp per month or 8th gen for PC caps. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | We are changing our vote. After talking with several ST's, ex-ST's, and players of our game, I feel it is appropriate to vote for the following reasons, in more or less ranking order. (1) The majority of the Illinois games have voted yes, including several that I HIGHLY respect. I will support them and what they are trying to do. (2) This measure does have other implications aside from Vampire genre that I support, including standardization of certain rules, PC elders (or lack thereof), and overpowered characters. (3) I agree with both the standardization of this rule across all chronciles and the ruling, and I feel it will make a better OWBN for our game to be a part of. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | We are changing our vote. After talking with several ST's, ex-ST's, and players of our game, I feel it is appropriate to vote for the following reasons, in more or less ranking order. (1) The majority of the Illinois games have voted yes, including several that I HIGHLY respect. I will support them and what they are trying to do. (2) This measure does have other implications aside from Vampire genre that I support, including standardization of certain rules, PC elders (or lack thereof), and overpowered characters. (3) I agree with both the standardization of this rule across all chronciles and the ruling, and I feel it will make a better OWBN for our game to be a part of. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | 8th Gen's with Elder lvl disciplines = CHEESE! |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | 8th Gen's with Elder lvl disciplines = CHEESE! |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | If the 8th generation Elder-Level Disciplines vote fails, I know of many chronicles who are going to start letting PCs buy things for use in other chronicles. We will allow PCs to buy these powers so that when they travel they can have them. Many of you are going to say, ''Great. That's how OWbN should work. Restrict your game.'' At one level you are correct. At another level I have no responsibility towards your game now. None. I pull a ''Pontious Pilate'' and wash my hands of it. Not my problem, right? Not in my game. What about YOUR game? What about when a bunch of 8th gen PCs show up all with Elder-Level Disciplines? What happens when at boot party comes to kill a player that only shows up to your game and they waft through the crowd like a thresher? Hey, I've got my game covered. Not in my backyard. What about when MY PCs show up to YOUR game and are just one of the characters rolled? Accept the consequences, right? You went, now suck it up. I agree and support that. I have to to tell my players more often than I'd like that they went to another game of their own free will. Now I've got to tell my players, ''don't go there anymore'', instead of ''accept the consequences''? It might take a few visits but once a trend has been established, they'll stop. No more travel, no more interaction. Why partake in OWbN? I hear, ''well we make them wait a year, and spend XP only on 'blah' while standing on their heads. That'll balance it out.'' What about those games that won't? If OWbN open the flood gates, EotR will not put any restrictions beyond those in the book. One of the quotes I have is from Scott Little on Thaumaturgy (yes, I agree with Scott Little on some things), ''If the effect of a ritual is broken, then no matter what level, or what the cost of the ritual, it is still broken.'' translated to Elder-Level Disciplines, ''Making something harder to get does not make it any less heinous and the fact that you feel the need to make it 'harder' to achieve validates that at some level you believe it to be unbalancing.'' That's me. I, for one, will not stop the floodgates once they have opened. I shall not make something harder to get. I will not tell my 8th gen PCs, 'no' to Elder-Level Disciplines. I don't have to worry about it. It's not a problem in *my* game. Not in my backyard. And are those games that do allow Elder-Level Disciplines going to dictate which visitors ''really'' have those and allow SOME PCs to have those powers and not others? Completely within your rights but I'll take a good bet that you'll see players stop visiting the game. Again interaction comes to a halt. I'm not trying to convince anyone of voting a certain way. All of the above deals with one core issue for my chronicle. I will not allow my PCs to be at an automatic disadvantage for which they have no way of overcoming when travelling at another game. Call me whatever names you like but that is my problem with this vote not passing. I have a responsibility to my players and if that means I help to allow an unbalancing element into other games (well, technically *I'm* not the one allowing it in) then it saddens me, but I will and from what I've been reading and been told I am not the only one. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | If the 8th generation Elder-Level Disciplines vote fails, I know of many chronicles who are going to start letting PCs buy things for use in other chronicles. We will allow PCs to buy these powers so that when they travel they can have them. Many of you are going to say, ''Great. That's how OWbN should work. Restrict your game.'' At one level you are correct. At another level I have no responsibility towards your game now. None. I pull a ''Pontious Pilate'' and wash my hands of it. Not my problem, right? Not in my game. What about YOUR game? What about when a bunch of 8th gen PCs show up all with Elder-Level Disciplines? What happens when at boot party comes to kill a player that only shows up to your game and they waft through the crowd like a thresher? Hey, I've got my game covered. Not in my backyard. What about when MY PCs show up to YOUR game and are just one of the characters rolled? Accept the consequences, right? You went, now suck it up. I agree and support that. I have to to tell my players more often than I'd like that they went to another game of their own free will. Now I've got to tell my players, ''don't go there anymore'', instead of ''accept the consequences''? It might take a few visits but once a trend has been established, they'll stop. No more travel, no more interaction. Why partake in OWbN? I hear, ''well we make them wait a year, and spend XP only on 'blah' while standing on their heads. That'll balance it out.'' What about those games that won't? If OWbN open the flood gates, EotR will not put any restrictions beyond those in the book. One of the quotes I have is from Scott Little on Thaumaturgy (yes, I agree with Scott Little on some things), ''If the effect of a ritual is broken, then no matter what level, or what the cost of the ritual, it is still broken.'' translated to Elder-Level Disciplines, ''Making something harder to get does not make it any less heinous and the fact that you feel the need to make it 'harder' to achieve validates that at some level you believe it to be unbalancing.'' That's me. I, for one, will not stop the floodgates once they have opened. I shall not make something harder to get. I will not tell my 8th gen PCs, 'no' to Elder-Level Disciplines. I don't have to worry about it. It's not a problem in *my* game. Not in my backyard. And are those games that do allow Elder-Level Disciplines going to dictate which visitors ''really'' have those and allow SOME PCs to have those powers and not others? Completely within your rights but I'll take a good bet that you'll see players stop visiting the game. Again interaction comes to a halt. I'm not trying to convince anyone of voting a certain way. All of the above deals with one core issue for my chronicle. I will not allow my PCs to be at an automatic disadvantage for which they have no way of overcoming when travelling at another game. Call me whatever names you like but that is my problem with this vote not passing. I have a responsibility to my players and if that means I help to allow an unbalancing element into other games (well, technically *I'm* not the one allowing it in) then it saddens me, but I will and from what I've been reading and been told I am not the only one. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | No PC should have Elder Level Disciplines. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | No PC should have Elder Level Disciplines. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | This should be handled selectively by each game.-Brandon* I think it should be noted that we have PC's who play Princes and perhaps Prince's, at the very least, should have elder powers.-Brian |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | This should be handled selectively by each game.-Brandon* I think it should be noted that we have PC's who play Princes and perhaps Prince's, at the very least, should have elder powers.-Brian |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | No matter how it is put this is a matter of chronicle sovereinty. If a game wants to have elder level disciplines, as it is allowed in the Laws of the Night 3rd ed, then let them do it. If you don't like, don't allow it in your game. If you don't like and are running a special event, don't allow it at the special event. Let the chronicles run with what is right for their game. Also I have heard the argument that the powers are broken and this is not true. An elder level discipline does not break a game. There will always be a powerstruggle between the 600 pt characters and the 30pt characters, the 600 can kill the 30 just as easy with or without elder level disciplines. Then again if 6 of the 30pts gang up on the 600 pt, that 600pt has a good chance of going down whether or not he has elder level disciplines. Lingering Malaise takes a full minute to perform as you explain the derangement you are getting, Personal armor does not protect you from fire or test down fire, if you lose the Love challenge then that person is immune to your presence powers for the rest of the night. These are not that hardcore. They sound bad, but you have to realize that only a small percent have them, or should have them since we shouldn't allow everyone to play an 8th gen. Let the chronicle decide what is right for them and their players if it doesn't directly affect your game. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | No matter how it is put this is a matter of chronicle sovereinty. If a game wants to have elder level disciplines, as it is allowed in the Laws of the Night 3rd ed, then let them do it. If you don't like, don't allow it in your game. If you don't like and are running a special event, don't allow it at the special event. Let the chronicles run with what is right for their game. Also I have heard the argument that the powers are broken and this is not true. An elder level discipline does not break a game. There will always be a powerstruggle between the 600 pt characters and the 30pt characters, the 600 can kill the 30 just as easy with or without elder level disciplines. Then again if 6 of the 30pts gang up on the 600 pt, that 600pt has a good chance of going down whether or not he has elder level disciplines. Lingering Malaise takes a full minute to perform as you explain the derangement you are getting, Personal armor does not protect you from fire or test down fire, if you lose the Love challenge then that person is immune to your presence powers for the rest of the night. These are not that hardcore. They sound bad, but you have to realize that only a small percent have them, or should have them since we shouldn't allow everyone to play an 8th gen. Let the chronicle decide what is right for them and their players if it doesn't directly affect your game. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | I actually tried to propose something like this myselfseveral years ago (before this voting system). It makes sense. 7th Gen is where the real power starts, not 8th. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | I actually tried to propose something like this myselfseveral years ago (before this voting system). It makes sense. 7th Gen is where the real power starts, not 8th. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | i have my own, slightly altered version of this for my house rules, which im keeping no matter the outcome, but i am very opposed to elder level powers in the hands of pc's, period. plain and simple, 8th gens do not need this. i also feel that it will enourage diablery, which is already done more than it should be, given the number of cam games. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | i have my own, slightly altered version of this for my house rules, which im keeping no matter the outcome, but i am very opposed to elder level powers in the hands of pc's, period. plain and simple, 8th gens do not need this. i also feel that it will enourage diablery, which is already done more than it should be, given the number of cam games. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | See Kings of NY |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | See Kings of NY |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | Even thou I agree that elder lvl powers should be a chronicle to chronicle ST allowed or disallowed house ruled or event ruled option. Not all of the ST staff in our chronicle agrees. So I am voteing yes for that ended up being the majority vote with our chronilcles staff. I myself still think it falls down to folks crying ''Hey I'm 8th gen and he's 8th gen but he has a elder lvl disipline my ST/chronicle does not allow. That's not fair!'' |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | Even thou I agree that elder lvl powers should be a chronicle to chronicle ST allowed or disallowed house ruled or event ruled option. Not all of the ST staff in our chronicle agrees. So I am voteing yes for that ended up being the majority vote with our chronilcles staff. I myself still think it falls down to folks crying ''Hey I'm 8th gen and he's 8th gen but he has a elder lvl disipline my ST/chronicle does not allow. That's not fair!'' |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against |