Gargoyles disallowed to have Iron Heart - Re-write
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Proposal Type: Bylaw Revision
Opened: 15-Apr-2017 12:00AM EDT
Closing: 22-Apr-2017 12:00AM EDT
I, Rob Beckett, in my duties as Brujah Coordinator make the following proposal;
That we add to the character bylaws 10.l.viii.7.c
1.Gargoyles with Iron Heart - PC: Disallowed - NPC: Disallowed - Coordinator: Brujah
Rationale:
It is my opinion that the Combination Discipline Iron Heart bypasses in whole, in part or in spirit the clan disadvantage of the Gargole Bloodline. It is also my opinion that allowing a character to access a power that bypasses an inherent disadvantage in their type is irresponsible, these advantages are there and are a part of the character type because they were designed to be that way.
In the Camarilla Guide Gargoyles are Submissive x2 on Dominate challenges. If a Gargoyle wins on ties this disadvantage is significantly diminished.
In Faith & Fire Gargoyles are down two traits on Dominate challenges. By winning on ties this disadvantage is completely negated.
I've mentioned both of the live action sources because games have the option of using mechanics from either book.
I submit this proposal without grandfathering. I have checked my vineyard access and there are no Gargoyles currently registered as having been approved for this discipline.
We've had a lot of discussion on this even though I withdrew the original prop because I misplaced the new line. Ultimately, I believe that this added line to the bylaws is better for the players than the current situation. If they know, going into it that the hard "No" is already in place they can spend their time working toward a more attainable goal. That will give both them and the people with whom they play an over all better experience.
Thank you for your consideration,
-Rob Beckett
One World by Night Brujah Coordinator
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Ballot Options For
Against
Abstain
78 out of 155 eligible voters cast their ballot
For
46% (36 votes)
Against
45% (35 votes)
Abstain
9% (7 votes)
| Chronicle/Position | Voted for | Comment |
|---|---|---|
| Dubuque, IA - USA, Kingdom of Ashes | For | |
| New York City, NY - USA, Kings of New York | Against | This isn't a problem in OWbN as admitted by the Brujah Coord. There are zero Gargoyle's with Iron Heart. This is literal bylaw bloat.
Update: to respond to Rob...I don't deal with unknowable futures. Who knows if OWBN will even exist in the next 20 years. It CURRENTLY is not a problem. If it BECOMES one one...we deal with it then. Hypotheticals are endless and if we dealt with them all...our bylaws would be double the size. Prop this when it IS a problem...not that it MIGHT be some day. This comment has been revised 1 time. Click here to see revision history Version 2 dated: Apr 19 2017, 3:27pm EDT This isn't a problem in OWbN as admitted by the Brujah Coord. There are zero Gargoyle's with Iron Heart. This is literal bylaw bloat. Update: to respond to Rob...I don't deal with unknowable futures. Who knows if OWBN will even exist in the next 20 years. It CURRENTLY is not a problem. If it BECOMES one one...we deal with it then. Hypotheticals are endless and if we dealt with them all...our bylaws would be double the size. Prop this when it IS a problem...not that it MIGHT be some day. |
| St. Louis, MO - USA, Shadows of St. Louis | Against | |
| Los Angeles, CA - USA, La Sangre De Los Angeles | Against | |
| Rio Grande, RS - Brazil, Sobre a Areia Sempre Hostil | For | |
| Maldonado - Uruguay, Maldonado by Night: Magus et Artifex | For | |
| Rockland, NY - USA, Under The Rock | Against | |
| Saint Paul, MN - USA, Obsidian Towers | For | |
| Mt. Dora, FL - USA, Mutual Alliance | Against | Disagree that this is something that shouldn't be allowed. The power doesn't expressly negate the advantage; it only hides it as a SIDE product of its benefit. There are also powers that can negate the advantage (like Burning Touch). You may as well forbid Nos (or Gargoyles) from learning Obfuscate. I agree that some things, like Calm Heart for Brujah, should be forbidden, because they are always 'on' and can't be contested or negated with a challenge. This does. [Also, why isn't Iron Will (or Iron Mind) forbidden for Gargoyles then either?] Bottom line: the Cam guide says it is diminished, use that, and keep shooting any requests with a No. (Maybe put it in your sig line if you feel it will be a problem?) |
| Mossoro, RN - Brazil, Mossoro by Night | Against | Pontas soltas existem, não existe necessidade de regular tudo. |
| Fortaleza, CE - Brazil, Land of The Sun | For | |
| Curitiba, PR - Brazil, Curitiba By Night | Against | |
| La Crosse, WI - USA, The Rivers Edge | For | |
| Iowa City, IA - USA, Fields of Rage | For | |
| Dois Vizinhos, PR - Brazil, The Kingdom by Night - Immortal Royalty | For | |
| Cape Cod, MA - USA, Rage Across the Cape | Abstain | |
| Berkeley, CA - USA, Wasting the Dawn | For | |
| Stockton, CA - USA, Stockton by Night | For | |
| Milwaukee, WI - USA, Nocturnal Rapture | For | |
| Martinsburg, WV - USA, Martinsburg by Night | For | |
| Decatur, IL - USA, The Chaos Within | For | |
| Tampa, FL - USA, Tampa Bay by Night | For | |
| Philadelphia, PA - USA, Honor in the Shadows | Against | |
| Evansville, IN - USA, Paradise Lost | Against | |
| Cedar Rapids, IA - USA, Five Nights | For | |
| Philadelphia, PA - USA, Nusquam | For | |
| Chicago, IL - USA, Dark Requiem | Abstain | |
| Indianapolis, IN - USA, Stars Never Rise | Against | |
| Auburn, CA - USA, Lux Tenebras | For | |
| Cedar Falls, IA - USA, Blackhawk Co. by Night | Against | |
| Norwalk, CT - USA, Rails of Revolution | Against | |
| San Francisco, CA - USA, Always Comes Evening | For | |
| Griffin, GA - USA, Immortal Nights Theater | Against | Bylaw bloat; Brujah Coord already has the ability to handle this, as do local House Rules. |
| Cleveland, OH - USA, Carpe Noctum | Against | Unnecessary with the current bylaws as they stand. |
| Dayton, OH - USA, Dying Embers | Against | |
| Orland Park, IL - USA, Enigmas of Rage | Abstain | |
| Brasília, DF - Brazil, Pacis Aeternae | For | |
| Allentown, PA - USA, Steel Valley by Night | Against | As Nancy Reagan said, " just say no." |
| Macon, GA - USA, Stolen Hours | Against | The clan flaw is as written. Attempting to add more to the flaw by limiting defenses against that flaw is unfair. There are plenty of powers which limit, eliminate or mitigate clan flaws, and the flaw still exists even when mitigated. |
| Cincinnati, OH - USA, Shadows of Cincinnati | For | |
| Madison, Wi - USA, Black Crusade | For | |
| Lancaster, OH - USA, Never Ending Nights | Against | |
| Columbus, OH - USA, Columbus in Darkness | Against | |
| Ouro Preto, MG - Brazil, Dying of the Light | Abstain | |
| Portland, ME - USA, Blackened Veins | For | There are many things that we put into the rules because we don't know what the future will hold. This is one of those things. |
| Lewiston/Auburn, ME - USA, Shadows and Light | Against | |
| Lexington, KY - USA, Panders Playground | For | |
| Gary, IN - USA, Shattered Souls | For | |
| Springfield, IL - USA, Capitol City Cauldron | Against | |
| Savannah, GA - USA, City of Shadows | Against | |
| Washington, DC - USA, Shadows on the Mall | For | |
| Kenosha, WI - USA, Memento Mori | Against | |
| Rio de Janeiro, RJ - Brazil, City of Wonders | For | |
| Green Bay, WI - USA, Shattered Dreams | Against | |
| Columbus, OH - USA, Wyld Prophets | Abstain | |
| New Orleans, LA - USA, Long Night | For | |
| Athens, GA - USA, Athens After Dark | Against | |
| Gimli, MB - Canada, Sang Nordique | For | |
| Iowa City, IA - USA, L'Ange Noir | Against | |
| St. Augustine, FL - USA, On Haunted Ground | Against | |
| Rohnert Park, CA - USA, Shadows Crossing | For | |
| Northern Virginia, VA - USA, Night Falls | Against | |
| Bradenton, FL - USA, Chaos & Entropy | Against | |
| Springfield, OH - USA, Ohio Knights Sabbat | Against | |
| Edwardsville, IL - USA, Caught in Eternal Twilight | Against | |
| Phoenix, AZ - USA, Unchained Arizona | Against | |
| Chicago, IL - USA, New Moon Rising | Abstain | |
| Lakeland, FL - USA, Lagos de los Muertos | For | |
| Worcester County, MA - USA, Quabbin | Abstain | |
| Gainesville, FL - USA, Won't Back Down | Against | |
| Vale do Itajaí, SC - Brazil, Fear of the Dark | For | |
| Indianapolis, IN - USA, Past is Prologue | Against | |
| Lancaster, OH - USA, Mountains Dark Heart | For | |
| New Rochelle, NY - USA, Seasons of Strange | For | |
| Washington, DC - USA, Shadows on the Horizon | For | |
| Baltimore, MD - USA, Dark Harbor | For | |
| Salvador, BA - Brazil, Veritas Salvatore | Against | |
| Tampa, FL - USA, Orlando: Magic Kingdom | For | Ocala: Iron Heart is always on. Winning on ties re dominate effectively bypasses both versions of the Gargoyle flaw. In the Faith and Fire Version which puts them down two traits on the challenge it directly negates it. In teh Cam guide version it bypasses the drawback of having two negative traits called. The purpose of calling negative traits is so that if the character loses, they have less traits for comparison on ties.
Things like Obfuscate for hiding the nos flaw are not always active and there is a test to see through the effect. Iron heart is always active and there is no way to circumvent the benefit.
KONY: It is the most common request received by the Brujah Coord office. While the current administration may say no, there is no guarantee that future office holders will maintain that policy. There are different types of problems. That we get more individual requests for this than anything else, is one type. By disallowing it, we remove that problem. This comment has been revised 1 time. Click here to see revision history Version 1 dated: Apr 17 2017, 11:24am EDT Ocala: Iron Heart is always on. Winning on ties re dominate effectively bypasses both versions of the Gargoyle flaw. In the Faith and Fire Version which puts them down two traits on the challenge it directly negates it. In teh Cam guide version it bypasses the drawback of having two negative traits called. The purpose of calling negative traits is so that if the character loses, they have less traits for comparison on ties. Things like Obfuscate for hiding the nos flaw are not always active and there is a test to see through the effect. Iron heart is always active and there is no way to circumvent the benefit. Version 2 dated: Apr 17 2017, 12:00pm EDT Ocala: Iron Heart is always on. Winning on ties re dominate effectively bypasses both versions of the Gargoyle flaw. In the Faith and Fire Version which puts them down two traits on the challenge it directly negates it. In teh Cam guide version it bypasses the drawback of having two negative traits called. The purpose of calling negative traits is so that if the character loses, they have less traits for comparison on ties. Things like Obfuscate for hiding the nos flaw are not always active and there is a test to see through the effect. Iron heart is always active and there is no way to circumvent the benefit. KONY: It is the most common request received by the Brujah Coord office. While the current administration may say no, there is no guarantee that future office holders will maintain that policy. There are different types of problems. That we get more individual requests for this than anything else, is one type. By disallowing it, we remove that problem. |
This isn't a problem in OWbN as admitted by the Brujah Coord. There are zero Gargoyle's with Iron Heart. This is literal bylaw bloat.