[SECOND] [BYLAW REVISION] Addition to Character Bylaws Gifts and Arts for Vampires
Status message
Displaying output for plurality votingOpen Votes
Proposal Type: Bylaw Revision
Opened: 22-Apr-2025 12:00AM EDT
Closing: 29-Apr-2025 12:00AM EDT
I, Adam Sartori, CM for Kings of New York propose the following additions to the OWBN Character bylaws.
6.a.vi. PCs, who are not Abominations, may never possess, use or have Changing Breed Gifts by any means.
6.a.vii. PCs may never possess, use or have Changeling Arts by any means.
---Legacy---
None
---Reasoning---
This Proposal ONLY affects Vampire PCs, and no one else. We have seen an increase of Vampire PCs in OWBN using both Changing Breed Gifts and Changeling Arts. This is usually being done via Magic Items or Custom Content. There are ZERO examples of Vampires in the books having or using these things (the exception being Abominations for Gifts, which this proposal covers). The Game design for both Changing Breed Gifts and Changeling Arts never considered Vampire the Masquerade in their design or how they would work or balance in a Vampire game. As such, allowing these things creates a huge imbalance of Haves and Have Nots among Vampire PCs. The game should not be fair IC, but it should be OOC. I think most STs and CMs would agree, Vampire PCs should not have or use these things.
I also spoke to the CBC and Changeling Coord and they spoke to me in support of this proposal as well.
This proposal will need a second.
Thanks,
Adam Sartori
HST and CM for Kings of New York
File / Document: No file attachments for this vote.
Ballot Options For
Against
Abstain
59 out of 155 eligible voters cast their ballot
For
51% (30 votes)
Against
46% (27 votes)
Abstain
3% (2 votes)
| Chronicle/Position | Voted for | Comment |
|---|---|---|
| Marquette, MI - USA, Shattered Tears over Rural Michigan | Abstain | |
| Joinville, SC - Brazil, Danse Macabre | For | |
| Brasília, DF - Brazil, Caldas Novas | For | |
| Lisbon, Lisbon - Portugal, Eternal Cursed Darkness | For | |
| Minneapolis, MN - USA, Swift to Shed Blood | For | |
| New York City, NY - USA, Kings of New York | For | I think this is common sense among most owbn STs that vampires should not be running around with Changing Breed Gifts or Changeling Arts. There is virtually no book support for this, and its wildly unbalancing. The games were not designed for that. It will also help even the playing field between PCs that have these things and those that don't |
| St. Louis, MO - USA, Shadows of St. Louis | Against | "The vampire terrorizing a local motley wakes up with no memory of her undead state and panics when she steps outside and the sunlight burns her skin." p. 201. Changeling source. "In a strange turn of events, the sluagh calls a canopy of trees to block the sun and save the vampire caught out in the day." p. 225. "Actor: This Realm grants power over the folk of the Autumn World. Its purview encompasses ordinary people, of course, but also the enchanted, Kinain, mages, and even Prodigals such as vampires and werewolves". p. 233 |
| Campinas, SP - Brazil, Império das Cinzas | For | |
| Rio Grande, RS - Brazil, Sobre a Areia Sempre Hostil | For | |
| Maldonado - Uruguay, Maldonado by Night: Magus et Artifex | For | |
| São Paulo, SP - Brazil, São Paulo by Night | For | |
| Saint Paul, MN - USA, Obsidian Towers | For | |
| Mt. Dora, FL - USA, Mutual Alliance | For | |
| Mossoro, RN - Brazil, Mossoro by Night | For | This is an excellent proposal. Genre (vampire, mage, mummy) were made to be separate. By allowing vampires to have access to powers of this nature, it creates true narrative chaos. This comment has been revised 1 time. Click here to see revision history Version 2 dated: Apr 25 2025, 6:24am EDT This is an excellent proposal. Genre (vampire, mage, mummy) were made to be separate. By allowing vampires to have access to powers of this nature, it creates true narrative chaos. |
| Curitiba, PR - Brazil, Curitiba By Night | Against | Even if I understand the reasoning of the proposal, the way it is written is vague and will cause confusion and discussion in the future when someone is using only the bylaws as a reference. Must put it clear at the bylaws if the gifts and arts can be used via magic itens/fetish/wharever or not |
| La Crosse, WI - USA, The Rivers Edge | Against | |
| Cape Cod, MA - USA, Rage Across the Cape | Against | Keeping custom content within the "realm of possibility" by borrowing mechanics from other books is fine. I don't like vampires ACTUALLY possessing Gifts or Arts. That poses a problem. As worded, this creates confusion and gray areas. This comment has been revised 1 time. Click here to see revision history Version 1 dated: Apr 27 2025, 10:32am EDT Keeping custom content within the "realm of possibility" by borrowing mechanics from other books is fine. I don't like vampires ACTUALLY possessing Gifts or Arts. That poses a problem. Version 2 dated: Apr 28 2025, 2:45pm EDT Keeping custom content within the "realm of possibility" by borrowing mechanics from other books is fine. I don't like vampires ACTUALLY possessing Gifts or Arts. That poses a problem. As worded, this creates confusion and gray areas. |
| Stockton, CA - USA, Stockton by Night | Against | |
| Decatur, IL - USA, The Chaos Within | For | |
| Tampa, FL - USA, Tampa Bay by Night | For | |
| Philadelphia, PA - USA, Honor in the Shadows | Against | The reasoning and bylaw seem to contradict the books. Vampire PCs can have access to gifts through Fetishes. Per the MET Camarilla Guide, Spirit Manipulation Fetishes says to reference Laws of the Wild. There are many canon Fetishes that give access to Gifts (though not explicitly in LotW). If a game does not want to allow and item, then they have the ability to not allow said item. Additionally, while extremely uncommon, Kinfolk can be embraced, and kinfolk can learn Gifts. By book, Danislav Revenants can learn Shadow Lord Gifts (Danislav PCs require 2/3 Majority Vote). There are other ways to have access to Gifts, but Fetishes should not be crippled by this bylaw. As for Fae Arts, I am less versed on other 'by book' reasonings for Changeling abilities, but Kinain can also learn arts and be embraced in a similar manner as Kinfolk. Additionally, the Ravnos packet allows Fae Arts for Urmen characters. If the existing bylaw 6.f.i is insufficient, "All player characters are limited to possessing no more than two of the following power sets" then that bylaw should be addressed. Side note, depending on how we interpret the term "possessing" the power set, any PC with Arts from Treasures and having Gifts from Fetishes would be in violation of this bylaw. |
| Bartow, FL - USA, Polk County Prophecies | For | |
| Duluth, MN - USA, Thicker than Blood | For | |
| Chicago, IL - USA, Dark Requiem | Against | Vampire books directly say to use Laws of the Wild for creating Fetishes and many of the by book fetishes in Werewolf are fetishes that mimic/duplicate gifts. |
| Norwalk, CT - USA, Rails of Revolution | Against | |
| Griffin, GA - USA, Immortal Nights Theater | Against | |
| Dayton, OH - USA, Dying Embers | For | |
| Brasília, DF - Brazil, Pacis Aeternae | For | |
| Allentown, PA - USA, Steel Valley by Night | Against | We echo Curitiba |
| Recife, PE - Brazil, Pernambuco by Night: Forever Haunted | For | |
| Cincinnati, OH - USA, Shadows of Cincinnati | Against | Per player vote. |
| Lancaster, OH - USA, Never Ending Nights | For | |
| Ouro Preto, MG - Brazil, Dying of the Light | For | |
| Lexington, KY - USA, Panders Playground | Against | While there are Zero examples of Vampires with Gifts and/or Arts, there are a multitude of by book fetishes that directly copy the mechanics of a gift or use a gift as the sole description of the mechanics provided. The inclusion of 'By any means' violates the base nature of the rules of the game by book. |
| Alto Tietê, SP - Brazil, Sang Royal | For | |
| Vale do Paraíba, SP - Brazil, Vale Sangrento | For | |
| Kenosha, WI - USA, Memento Mori | Against | |
| Green Bay, WI - USA, Shattered Dreams | Against | |
| Columbus, OH - USA, Wyld Prophets | For | |
| Natal, RN - Brazil, Legacy of Blood | For | |
| Gimli, MB - Canada, Sang Nordique | Against | |
| St. Augustine, FL - USA, On Haunted Ground | Against | While we approve the idea of Custom Content - such as merits, Combination Disciplines, etc. - being limited we did not agree with the idea of limiting items utilizing Hedge Magic or fetishes created by Spirit Manipulation, as both reference utilizing intermediate and below powers. |
| Annapolis, MD - USA, Vitae Aeternus | Against | |
| Londrina, PR - Brazil, Blood and Vendetta | Against | |
| Springfield, OH - USA, Ohio Knights Sabbat | For | |
| Phoenix, AZ - USA, Unchained Arizona | Against | |
| Vale do Itajaí, SC - Brazil, Fear of the Dark | For | |
| Lancaster, OH - USA, Mountains Dark Heart | Against | |
| New Rochelle, NY - USA, Seasons of Strange | Against | |
| Bloomington, IL - USA, Zephyr of Darkness | Abstain | |
| Nashville, IN - USA, Tea With Dragons | Against | |
| Bridgeport, CT - USA, Bridgeport by Night: The Broken City | Against | |
| Baltimore, MD - USA, Dark Harbor | Against | |
| Cincinnati, OH - USA, Rage and Fury | For | |
| Pelotas, RS - Brazil, The City of Shadows | For | |
| Grady, GA - USA, Whispers of Grady | Against | |
| Nova Uruguaiana, RS - Brazil, Uruguaiana By Night – Susurros de la Oscuridad | For | |
| Cambridge, MA - USA, The Midnight Rose | Against | |
| San Antonio, TX - USA, Libertatis Cunabula | Against |
This is an excellent proposal. Genders were made to be separate. By allowing vampires to have access to powers of this nature, it creates true narrative chaos.