[R&U BYLAW AMENDMENT] Out of Clan/Sect Obtenebration Rarity Change
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Proposal Type: Bylaw Revision
Opened: 25-May-2014 12:00AM EDT
Closing: 01-Jun-2014 12:00AM EDT
This proposal was objected to by Death in the Valley and was subsequently moved to Council Vote
Per the Coordinator Bylaws 3Ciii. "Genre Coordinators must pass before Council any plot, enforced policy, R&U named characters, or binding edict they wish to use which they can reasonably expect to affect multiple chronicles and these proposals need not be seconded, but go immediately into discussion."
The Lasombra Coordinator proposes a change to the R&U Bylaws which will restrict the proliferation of Obtenebration outside the Sabbat.
The following changes to the R&U Bylaws will occur:
- The item "Non Lasombra Camarilla Members with Obtenebration" will be removed from 3.D.1 (Coordinator Approval)
- The item "Out of Clan Obtenebration for Non Sabbat Members" will be added to 3.D.1 (Coordinator Approval)
This is primarily meant to keep things consistent with the non Sabbat Lasombra proposal, and to fix a loophole whereby Camarilla Kiasyd technically aren't allowed to buy Obtenebration without approval.
I recognize that this includes Anarchs with Obtenebration, and that is a not-negligible group of characters. a 30 day grandfathering period will be included in this proposal.
Andrew Maetke
File / Document: No file attachments for this vote.
Ballot Options For
Against
Abstain
70 out of 160 eligible voters cast their ballot
For
47% (33 votes)
Against
40% (28 votes)
Abstain
13% (9 votes)
| Chronicle/Position | Voted for | Comment |
|---|---|---|
| Paducah, KY: Edge of Chaos | Against | |
| Dubuque, IA - USA, Kingdom of Ashes | For | |
| New York City, NY - USA, Kings of New York | For | |
| St. Louis, MO - USA, Shadows of St. Louis | Against | We would have voted yes had this "Out of Clan Obten for non-Sabbat" requiring coord approval been limited to *NPCs* teaching or be coord notify. We are distressed at the Tea-Party-esque "non-negotiable" approach taken by the Coord's office in this matter. That approach forces us to vote no, especially when the non-negotiable part seems to go well beyond the scope of the stated primary purpose. |
| Los Angeles, CA - USA, La Sangre De Los Angeles | For | |
| Rockland, NY - USA, Under The Rock | Against | There is already a system in place making it very difficult to get obten out of clan for Anarchs. This proposal now makes an anarch be forced to get Approval from a Coord to learn a requisite power for one of the Anarch Combos most often sought out for. This is more bureaucracy, and the Coord Proposing it has not revealed any actual figures from a census of any kind(which is gonna happen in a couple weeks) to support the necessity of this proposal. |
| Saint Paul, MN - USA, Obsidian Towers | For | |
| Detroit, MI - USA, Motor City Monsters | Abstain | |
| Curitiba, PR - Brazil, Curitiba By Night | Abstain | |
| La Crosse, WI - USA, The Rivers Edge | Against | |
| Iowa City, IA - USA, Fields of Rage | Abstain | |
| Buffalo, NY - USA, Frozen Queen | Against | See St.Louis, minus the Tea-Party bit. |
| Cape Cod, MA - USA, Rage Across the Cape | Abstain | |
| Berkeley, CA - USA, Wasting the Dawn | Against | |
| Milwaukee, WI - USA, Nocturnal Rapture | Against | |
| Peoria, IL - USA, The Shattered Mirror | For | |
| Martinsburg, WV - USA, Martinsburg by Night | Abstain | After the additional discussion, and more thought, I've found myself on the fence now, so am altering my vote. |
| Decatur, IL - USA, The Chaos Within | Against | |
| Tampa, FL - USA, Tampa Bay by Night | For | Please close this GIGANTIC loop-hole that has been exploited for YEARS. I think you're going to be absolutely shocked with the Cam versus Anarch side-by-side numbers after the grandfathering period closes and I encourage the Lasombra Coord to share said numbers with Council so their willful ignorance of the issue may be exposed. |
| Philadelphia, PA - USA, Honor in the Shadows | Against | |
| Bartow, FL - USA, Polk County Prophecies | Abstain | |
| Cedar Rapids, IA - USA, Five Nights | Against | |
| Sacramento, CA - USA, Sacramento By Night | For | |
| Fredericksburg, VA - USA, Caine's Chosen: Liberty in Death | Abstain | |
| Auburn, CA - USA, Lux Tenebras | Against | |
| Cedar Falls, IA - USA, Blackhawk Co. by Night | For | |
| Norwalk, CT - USA, Rails of Revolution | For | There is too much Obtenebration outside of the Sabbat. If PCs are making a fair exchange, I'm all for that, but if they're learning from NPC mentors or trunk monkeys like Cam PCs were notorious for in the past, that is problematic. Obtenbration is largely proprietary to the Sabbat, and those amongst the Anarchs and the Cam shouldn't be teaching it very often as it is far more likely for them to be caught that way. Also add in that obtenebration shouldn't be something most humane PCs want to learn. It's manipulating the abyss...that's creepy, inhumane, and should be all kinds of ick in most circumstances. Unfortunately, from what I have personally seen, folks just look at it as yet another super cool power to collect. This comment has been revised 1 time. Click here to see revision history Version 2 dated: May 30 2014, 2:35pm EDT There is too much Obtenebration outside of the Sabbat. If PCs are making a fair exchange, I'm all for that, but if they're learning from NPC mentors or trunk monkeys like Cam PCs were notorious for in the past, that is problematic. Obtenbration is largely proprietary to the Sabbat, and those amongst the Anarchs and the Cam shouldn't be teaching it very often as it is far more likely for them to be caught that way. Also add in that obtenebration shouldn't be something most humane PCs want to learn. It's manipulating the abyss...that's creepy, inhumane, and should be all kinds of ick in most circumstances. Unfortunately, from what I have personally seen, folks just look at it as yet another super cool power to collect. |
| Atlanta, GA - USA, Whispers of Atlanta | Abstain | |
| Fargo, ND - USA, Within Shadow's Reach | For | |
| Cleveland, OH - USA, Carpe Noctum | Against | After speaking with the ST staff and a few others, we aren't against this proposal in general, we just feel that it might be problematic for the Anarch genre. |
| Dayton, OH - USA, Dying Embers | For | |
| Allentown, PA - USA, Steel Valley by Night | Against | While we agree with this prop for the Kiasyd, our issue is that this does include Anarch Lasombra teaching their clan specific to other Anarchs. We agree with Lasombra AT in the Camarilla being regulated and having OoC as well as IC mechanisms for this; the Anarchs are a different animal than the Camarilla. Because of this, the Anarch Coord should have the ability to grant those approvals. This is not out of line with some of the powers of approval given to the Sabbat Coord for various merits, powers, etc. that are available through its various factions. This comment has been revised 1 time. Click here to see revision history Version 1 dated: May 26 2014, 11:16am EDT While we agree with this prop for the Kiasyd, our issue is that this does include Anarch Lasombra teaching their clan specific to other Anarchs. We agree with Lasombra AT in the Camarilla being regulated and having OoC as well as IC mechanisms for this; the Anarchs are a different animal than the Camarilla. Because of this, the Amarch Coord should have the ability to grant those approvals. This is not out of line with some of the powers of approval given to the Sabbat Coord for various merits, powers, etc. that are available through its various factions. Version 2 dated: May 26 2014, 11:17am EDT While we agree with this prop for the Kiasyd, our issue is that this does include Anarch Lasombra teaching their clan specific to other Anarchs. We agree with Lasombra AT in the Camarilla being regulated and having OoC as well as IC mechanisms for this; the Anarchs are a different animal than the Camarilla. Because of this, the Anarch Coord should have the ability to grant those approvals. This is not out of line with some of the powers of approval given to the Sabbat Coord for various merits, powers, etc. that are available through its various factions. |
| Macon, GA - USA, Stolen Hours | Against | |
| Recife, PE - Brazil, Pernambuco by Night: Forever Haunted | For | |
| Winchester, VA: Sins in the Valley | Against | |
| Cincinnati, OH - USA, Shadows of Cincinnati | Against | |
| Lancaster, OH - USA, Never Ending Nights | Against | |
| Cleveland, OH - USA, Heartland Alliance | Against | |
| Columbus, OH - USA, Columbus in Darkness | For | |
| Portland, ME - USA, Blackened Veins | Against | |
| Lewiston/Auburn, ME - USA, Shadows and Light | For | |
| Lexington, KY - USA, Panders Playground | For | |
| Pittsburgh, PA - USA, Rage Across Three Rivers | Against | |
| Savannah, GA - USA, City of Shadows | Abstain | |
| Alto Tietê, SP - Brazil, Sang Royal | For | |
| Vale do Paraíba, SP - Brazil, Vale Sangrento | For | |
| Phoenix, AZ - USA, Secundus Surrectum | For | |
| Amador, CA - USA, River of Shadows | For | |
| Kenosha, WI - USA, Memento Mori | For | An Anarch Lasombra (N)PC teaching Obten to his buddies should be held to the same standard as a Camarilla Lasombra Anti (N)PC teaching his friends. This is a no brainer. |
| Boston, MA - USA, Reclaimed | For | |
| Green Bay, WI - USA, Shattered Dreams | For | |
| Bridgewater, MA - USA, Into The Darkness: Sabbat | For | |
| Athens, GA - USA, Athens After Dark | For | |
| Natal, RN - Brazil, Legacy of Blood | For | |
| Harrisonburg, VA: Death in the Valley | Against | |
| Gimli, MB - Canada, Sang Nordique | For | |
| Iowa City, IA - USA, L'Ange Noir | For | If this even *slows* the spread of out-of-clan Obten, I'm happy. |
| St. Augustine, FL - USA, On Haunted Ground | Against | |
| Rohnert Park, CA - USA, Shadows Crossing | For | |
| Northern Virginia, VA - USA, Night Falls | Against | The current system is fine and I do not see a genre reason as to why this should be under the complete control of one person. |
| Annapolis, MD - USA, Vitae Aeternus | Against | Subject to change with player input. |
| Bradenton, FL - USA, Chaos & Entropy | For | |
| Edwardsville, IL - USA, Caught in Eternal Twilight | Against | Sabbat gets anarch combos. Regulate anarchs.
Sabbat gets Thaum. Regulate thaum.
Cam gets obten? Regulate cam.
Anarchs get obten? Regulate Anarchs.
The Sabbat has gotten insane!
I don't agree with the association with the Camarilla. The anarchs are a separate sect, whatever the treaty of thorns might imply.
This comment has been revised 2 times. Click here to see revision history Version 1 dated: May 26 2014, 9:08am EDT Per STc and player input Version 2 dated: May 30 2014, 9:14am EDT Per ST and player input Version 3 dated: May 30 2014, 9:23am EDT Sabbat gets anarch combos. Regulate anarchs. Sabbat gets Thaum. Regulate thaum. Cam gets obten? Regulate cam. Anarchs get obten? Regulate Anarchs. The Sabbat has gotten insane! I don't agree with the association with the Camarilla. The anarchs are a separate sect, whatever the treaty of thorns might imply. |
| Phoenix, AZ - USA, Unchained Arizona | Against | |
| Chicago, IL - USA, New Moon Rising | Against | |
| Lakeland, FL - USA, Lagos de los Muertos | For | |
| Gainesville, FL - USA, Won't Back Down | Against | |
| Hartford, CT - USA, Dark Colony | For | Anarchs Should have the same regulation as camarilla vampires. |
| Vale do Itajaí, SC - Brazil, Fear of the Dark | For | |
| Baltimore, MD - USA, Dark Harbor | For |
There is too much Obtenebration outside of the Sabbat. If PCs are making a fair exchange, I'm all for that, but if they're learning from NPC mentors or trunk monkeys like Cam PCs were notorious for in the past, that is problematic. Obtenbration is largely proprietary to the Sabbat, and those amongst the Anarchs and the Cam shouldn't be teaching it very often as it is far more likely for them to be caught that way. Also add in that obtenebration shouldn't be something most humane PCs want to learn. It's manipulating the abyss...that's creepy, inhumane, and should be all kinds of ick in most circumstances. Unfortunately, from what I have personally seen, folks just look at it as yet another super cool power to collect.