Non-Sabbat with Valeren
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Displaying output for plurality votingOpen Votes
Proposal Type: Bylaw Revision
Opened: 27-Oct-2008 1:00AM EDT
Closing: 28-Oct-2008 1:00AM EDT
As the CM of Blackhawk County by Night, I, Daniel B. Karpouzian, propose the following:
Bylaw 9 B iv is changed from:
9 B iv) Coord Approval: Assamite Infiltrators, Dominate Malkavian Antitribu, Non-Assamite converts to
the clan, Nosferatu Infiltrators, PCs embraced by or into Coord or Canon NPC sires/broods, PCs with history
involving Coord or Canon NPCs, Relatives of famous Garou, Semi-Supernatural Kinfolk, Anarch Tremere
(Pyramid loyal), non-Followers of Set with Akhu, non-Serpents of the Light with Wanga, non-Daitya or
Ravnos rakta-sadhus with Sadhana, non-Tlacique with Nahuallotl, Rogue Hermetic Thaumaturgists,
Rogue Necromancers, Non-Tzmisce Kolduns, Bitter Hex, Bringers of Eternal Peace, Children of Bat, Cyber
Dogs, Dead Goddess Cult, Eaters of the Dead, Ivory Priesthood, Judges of Doom, Loki's Smile, Man Eaters,
Masks, Mother's Fundamentalists, Path Dancers, Society of the Bitter Frost, Society of Nidhogg, Sword of
Hiemdall, Temple of Artemis, Umbral Pilots, Ymir's Sweat
To:
iv) Coord Approval: Assamite Infiltrators, Dominate Malkavian Antitribu, Non-Assamite converts to
the clan, Nosferatu Infiltrators, PCs embraced by or into Coord or Canon NPC sires/broods, PCs with history
involving Coord or Canon NPCs, Relatives of famous Garou, Semi-Supernatural Kinfolk, Anarch Tremere
(Pyramid loyal), non-Followers of Set with Akhu, non-Serpents of the Light with Wanga, non-Daitya or
Ravnos rakta-sadhus with Sadhana, non-Tlacique with Nahuallotl, Rogue Hermetic Thaumaturgists,
Rogue Necromancers, Non-Tzmisce Kolduns, Bitter Hex, Bringers of Eternal Peace, Children of Bat, Cyber
Dogs, Dead Goddess Cult, Eaters of the Dead, Ivory Priesthood, Judges of Doom, Loki's Smile, Man Eaters,
Masks, Mother's Fundamentalists, Path Dancers, Society of the Bitter Frost, Society of Nidhogg, Sword of
Hiemdall, Temple of Artemis, Umbral Pilots, Ymir's Sweat, Non-Sabbat with Valeren.
--
-Daniel B. Karpouzian
bridge mediaAir Jordan 1 Retro High OG "UNC Patent" Obsidian/Blue Chill-White For Sale
File / Document: No file attachments for this vote.
Ballot Options Against
For
Abstain
1 out of 160 eligible voters cast their ballot
Against
55% (64 votes)
Abstain
22% (26 votes)
For
22% (26 votes)
| Chronicle/Position | Voted for | Comment |
|---|---|---|
| Carbondale, IL, USA: Forgotten Court | Against | OOC Regulation of a discipline. Cluttered By-Laws. Are Protean, Chimestry, Serpentis, Dementation, and others all going to be regulated as well? |
| Dubuque, IA - USA, Kingdom of Ashes | For | As a Sabbat game, we fully support this attempt to regulate Uncle Cammie's Discount House of Disciplines. |
| New York City, NY - USA, Kings of New York | Against | Frankly, this shouldn't even be coming up. It just shouldn't. Equally frankly, we don't believe this is the way to regulate it. |
| St. Louis, MO - USA, Shadows of St. Louis | Abstain | Awaiting Staff discussion. At present however, I would like to simply comment on the direction this prop would angle Discipline trading towards. If we're to restrict Valeren to Sabbat-only... How long before we do the same for other Sect-specifics? And how long after that will someone prop Clan-specifics after that? That's not an apples and oranges discussion. That's a very real possibility. Not that I'm asking for Mytheceria, Damonion, Melpominee, Abombwe, Viseratika or any other rare-er Discipline to be restricted as such... Nor do I can about IC vs OOC when it comes to R&U rules. I just don't think that this is a road we want to begin to go down... |
| Rio Grande, RS - Brazil, Sobre a Areia Sempre Hostil | Against | |
| Bloomington, IN - USA, Fallen Idols | Abstain | |
| Mt. Dora, FL - USA, Mutual Alliance | Against | |
| Sheboygan, WI - USA, Blood on the Lake | Against | |
| La Crosse, WI - USA, The Rivers Edge | Against | |
| Iowa City, IA - USA, Fields of Rage | Abstain | |
| Cape Cod, MA - USA, Rage Across the Cape | Abstain | |
| Berkeley, CA - USA, Wasting the Dawn | For | This was a problem that needed to be regulated. WtD Thanks the Coords/CMs that DID come forward to point out this is a problem in the org. |
| Stockton, CA - USA, Stockton by Night | Abstain | |
| Milwaukee, WI - USA, Nocturnal Rapture | Against | As an ST I have the ability to say 'no', and use it quite often. OOC mechanics do not need to be involved in this. Let's instead focus on story. Show those characters who decide this is a good idea what 'personal horror' is all about. |
| Decatur, IL - USA, The Chaos Within | For | |
| Philadelphia, PA - USA, Honor in the Shadows | Abstain | |
| Promise, CA: Broken Promises | Against | |
| Cedar Rapids, IA - USA, Five Nights | Against | We have a solution for this already, if people would enforce consequences. ''I know Valeren!'' ''Oh really, where did you learn that?'' ''From the Sabbat!'' That PC should then be done. No need to make something R&U that is already GNC. Or something that should be... |
| Duluth, MN - USA, Thicker than Blood | Against | Non-Sabbat? The very learning of this Discipline & the requirement's to learn it, such as the 1-step blood bond, as well as the ''Furies'' intense hatred of the Camarilla, shows that anyone learning this Discipline is Definately Sabbat, whether they are a part of the Sect or not. Let any character learn it that want's to. If they get ''tested'' in some way to determine loyalty, and they show loyal to anything other than Sabbat, then they are cheaters, plain and simple. Deserving of Org Strike Proposals for no other reason than this. If, on the other hand, they are Cammies who are wolves in sheeps clothing, then I would support them getting it. This does not need regulation. |
| Philadelphia, PA - USA, Nusquam | Against | Don't tread on me. |
| Chicago, IL - USA, Dark Requiem | Against | |
| Orange County, CA: Muerte Libre | For | As an Anarch game, we hope you feel the same way when we try to lock down Anarch combos in the coming months. Edit: We voted against the last attempt to regulate Anarch combos because the story wasn't there. (There was no IC reason given why a political decision made one incapable of learning a given discipline.) This prop gives the genre coord the oversight needed to insure that the story is actually there for non-Sabbat learning this discipline, and that the logical follow-through actually takes place. Logical IC follow-through with other out-of-genre disciplines is obviously not self-regulating currently. (e.g. there are more non-Anarchs with Anarch Combos than Anarchs.) We've plenty of other examples on the books already of OOC regulations of IC interactions. (Off the top of my head: Council ratifying, or not, IC Conclave Votes; 7th Personal Status [surely aproval of the awarding of such can be left to the STs]; Global bloodhunts; Diablerizing your way to 7th Gen, or becoming a Garou Ledgend, an Anathema, or an Alastor rendering your character unplayable; Non-Assamite converts to the clan [no, really... scroll up.] etc.) Who among the naysayers here will be the first to prop their removal? |
| Winona, MN - USA, Winona Dark Haven | Against | I am not supporting any more props that place ooc restrictions in lieu of ic consequences. We need to start enforcing genre through rp not through props. |
| Auburn, CA - USA, Lux Tenebras | For | |
| Cedar Falls, IA - USA, Blackhawk Co. by Night | Abstain | |
| Norwalk, CT - USA, Rails of Revolution | Against | I believe I can regulate this on my own. Thanks. |
| Providence, RI - USA, Hidden Flame | Abstain | |
| Atlanta, GA - USA, Whispers of Atlanta | Against | |
| Fargo, ND - USA, Within Shadow's Reach | For | |
| Brasília, DF - Brazil, Pacis Aeternae | Against | We think it should be only coord notification. |
| Allentown, PA - USA, Steel Valley by Night | Against | I hate the Wonk. But I hate even more cluttered bylaw regulations. |
| Macon, GA - USA, Stolen Hours | For | |
| Winchester, VA: Sins in the Valley | Against | per player input. Although I think an IC way dealing with this from a Justicar would be a nice move. |
| Cincinnati, OH - USA, Shadows of Cincinnati | For | I would like very much to see this (and other similar) situations resolved between ST's, Genre Coords and the players involved. There are extremists in our org who wish to see either complete game autonomy or house rules in the bylaws. I would ask that we seek the middle ground, where game ST's work with the elected Coordinators who are in place for the express purpose of being consultants on specific pieces of genre. This matter should never need to be brought to Council and I am very sad that Dan has found himself in a position where this prop was his only recourse. I do not support the circumstances that make this prop is necessary, but I cannot support house rules in the bylaws either. I would urge ST's to learn to say the word ''No'' and mean it. However, it has become clear to me that the reason this prop was initially made was not successfully resolved through my suggested method, I am left with no choice but to vote for this prop to prevent further abuse. |
| Columbus, OH - USA, Columbus in Darkness | For | |
| Portland, ME - USA, Blackened Veins | Abstain | It would be nice to have this kind of thing tracked, so that if it were getting truly out of hand per the opinion of the Sabbat Coord they could prop to further regulate it, currently there seems to be little evidence that there is enough of a problem to warrant Coord Approval. How about Notify? |
| Gary, IN - USA, Shattered Souls | Abstain | |
| Springfield, IL - USA, Capitol City Cauldron | Against | |
| Washington, DC - USA, Shadows on the Mall | Against | |
| Amador, CA - USA, River of Shadows | Against | Echoing ''Thicker than Blood's'' statements. I would love to see storytellers not allow things to be taught if the PC's are simply gathering up cool toys as opposed to RPing being disloyal and sneaky, or have their NPC's not teach anything that they, the ST, doesn't know very very well. Cam Elders shouldn't be teaching sabbat junk. Sabbat NPC's shouldn't love themselves the Camarilla members unless they have set up the Cammie to be an infiltrator. PC's can do as much stupid shit as they want unfortunately, but I hope that their ST staff will inflict the appropriate consequences to defying sect/philosophical believes etc ICly. This doesn't need regulation, it needs responsible storytellers and players who are encouraging Role play, not the never ending flow of cheese. |
| Kenosha, WI - USA, Memento Mori | Against | |
| Rio de Janeiro, RJ - Brazil, City of Wonders | Against | |
| Green Bay, WI - USA, Shattered Dreams | Against | We too are firm and disagree with OOC regulation on IC interactions. |
| Natal, RN - Brazil, Legacy of Blood | Against | Coord Sabbat and your team should have autonomy in this.Politics of OOC should not interfere in IC in this case. |
| Gimli, MB - Canada, Sang Nordique | Abstain | |
| Iowa City, IA - USA, L'Ange Noir | Against | See Five Nights, which was also the sentiment several of our players as well. |
| St. Augustine, FL - USA, On Haunted Ground | For | |
| Northern Virginia, VA - USA, Night Falls | For | |
| Annapolis, MD - USA, Vitae Aeternus | Against | |
| Edwardsville, IL - USA, Caught in Eternal Twilight | Against | We are against OOC regulation on IC interactions. |
| Chicago, IL - USA, New Moon Rising | Abstain | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | Are you a true member of the sword of caine. No? Fury Eats your soul. Next question Please. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | Are you a true member of the sword of caine. No? Fury Eats your soul. Next question Please. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | Five nights already said it. ''We have a solution for this already, if people would enforce consequences. ''I know Valeren!'' ''Oh really, where did you learn that?'' ''From the Sabbat!'' That PC should then be done. No need to make something R&U that is already GNC. '' |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | Five nights already said it. ''We have a solution for this already, if people would enforce consequences. ''I know Valeren!'' ''Oh really, where did you learn that?'' ''From the Sabbat!'' That PC should then be done. No need to make something R&U that is already GNC. '' |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | To rebuttal Shadows of ST Louis' statement. These sort's of things need to taken on a case by case basis. After talking with people about this for a couple weeks now I do think that rare discipline teaching needs to be dealt with under genre packets. Unfortunately there is no genre packet that Valeren can fall under presently.In this case Valeren can only be only be taught by Salubri-Anti who are taught a strict code of honor and are found only in the sabbat. This is a extremely rare discipline to be found outside the sabbat and hence should be controled in such a manner. Remember that this prop doesn't say that you can't learn it outside the sabbat. It's just making it Coord approval so that learning it outside the sabbat still can sinc up with genre and basic logic. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | To rebuttal Shadows of ST Louis' statement. These sort's of things need to taken on a case by case basis. After talking with people about this for a couple weeks now I do think that rare discipline teaching needs to be dealt with under genre packets. Unfortunately there is no genre packet that Valeren can fall under presently.In this case Valeren can only be only be taught by Salubri-Anti who are taught a strict code of honor and are found only in the sabbat. This is a extremely rare discipline to be found outside the sabbat and hence should be controled in such a manner. Remember that this prop doesn't say that you can't learn it outside the sabbat. It's just making it Coord approval so that learning it outside the sabbat still can sinc up with genre and basic logic. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | 'We have a solution for this already, if people would enforce consequences. ''I know Valeren!'' ''Oh really, where did you learn that?'' ''From the Sabbat!'' That PC should then be done. No need to make something R&U that is already GNC. '' Like Five Nights say, the IC interaction solve this problem. No need OOC regulation for this. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | 'We have a solution for this already, if people would enforce consequences. ''I know Valeren!'' ''Oh really, where did you learn that?'' ''From the Sabbat!'' That PC should then be done. No need to make something R&U that is already GNC. '' Like Five Nights say, the IC interaction solve this problem. No need OOC regulation for this. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | We would prefer that this be notifiable rather than approval. We find the very fact that someone felt this necessary to propose to be sad. Secondly, where does this end...? |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | Against | We would prefer that this be notifiable rather than approval. We find the very fact that someone felt this necessary to propose to be sad. Secondly, where does this end...? |
| Reclamation | Abstain | |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | If we didn't have folks breaking genre like this, rules like this wouldn't need to be in place. |
| Chronicle/Position Unknown | For | If we didn't have folks breaking genre like this, rules like this wouldn't need to be in place. |