Path of Enlightenment R&U requirements

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Proposal Type: Bylaw Revision
Opened: 22-Jun-2004 1:00AM EDT
Closing: 30-Jun-2004 1:00AM EDT


According to the bylaws section 2-5 it is the responsibility of genre coordinatorsto maintain the consistency and genre appropriateness of the genre resource under
their care. To that end, as it is our duty, we the genre coordinators of the Sabbat,
Assamite, Followers of Set, Gangrel, Giovanni, Nosferatu, Toreador, Tremere,
Ventrue, in addition to the R&U Coordinator submit the following:

It is our opinion that the proliferation of characters on Paths of Enlightenment is
not being moderated reasonably at a chronicle level. Therefore, we propose that
characters on Paths of Enlightenment not appropriate to their clan or sect should be
held to the following standards:

1) All characters on paths of enlightenment not appropriate to their clan and sect
are to be considered Rare for R&U purposes

2) All characters on Paths of Enlightenment not appropriate to their clan and/or
sect receive the flaw "Notoriety" immediately upon converting to the path or at
character creation, whichever is applicable. They do not receive points for this
flaw, nor may it be bought off until the character has moved to an 'in genre' path.

3a) Camarillans on Paths of Enlightenment other than those designated as appropriate
shall have their personal status capped at 4

3b) Sabbat on Paths of Enlightenment other than those designated as appropriate
shall be unable to bid their status

Note on Roads: Characters currently on roads shall be treated as though they were on
their correspondent modern path.

Sect supercedes clan for the purposes of rarity.

All characters on Path of Revelations must be notified to the Sabbat Coordinator's
Office

We believe these changes will preserve the sense of identity between sects and
clans. It will also make paths of enlightenment more of a role-playing device than
a method of circumventing the morality system.

The Sabbat:

Bone, Lilith, Harmony, Hive, Blood, Sutekh, Typhon, Self-Focus, and Scorched Heart
are to be considered out of genre for Sabbat characters.

The Camarilla:

All paths other than Humanity are to be considered out of genre for Camarilla
characters.

Anarchs:

All paths other than Humanity are to be considered out of genre for Anarch characters.

Assamites:

-Loyalists

All paths other than Humanity, Path of Blood, and Honorable Accord are to be
considered out of genre for Loyalist Assamite characters

-Dispossessed

All paths other than Humanity and Honorable Accord are to be considered out of genre
for Dispossessed Assamite characters

-Schismatics

All paths other than Humanity are to be considered out of genre for Camarilla
characters.

Followers of Set:

-Camarillan Setites:

All paths other than Humanity are to be considered out of genre for Camarilla
characters.

-Independent Setites:

All paths other than Sutekh, Typhon, and Humanity, to be considered out of genre.

-Independent Warrior Setites

All paths other than Humanity, Honorable Accord, Typhon, and Sutekh

-Children of Damballah and Tlacique:

All paths other than Humanity are to be considered out of genre.

-Daitya:

All paths other than Sutekh, Typhon, and Humanity are to be considered out of genre.

NOTE: Typhon and Sutekh include their variant paths (Set's Vengeance and Ecstatic
Set). The Paths of the Warrior and of Ecstasy are considered out of genre for all
Setites.

Giovanni:

All paths other than Bone, Death and the Soul, and Humanity are to be considered out
of genre for Giovanni characters

Independent Gangrel:

All paths other than Path of the Beast and Humanity are to be considered out of
genre for Independent Gangrel characters.

Independent Ravnos:

All paths other than Paradox and Humanity are to be considered out of genre for
Independent Ravnos characters

Running sportsMen's Casual Shoes, Trainers, Sneakers

File / Document: No file attachments for this vote.
Ballot Options
For
Abstain
Against
1 out of 160 eligible voters cast their ballot
Against
58% (52 votes)
For
38% (34 votes)
Abstain
4% (4 votes)
Chronicle/PositionVoted forComment
New York City, NY - USA, Kings of New YorkForYknow what? We all need to stop crying about central council control and whether or not our genre is the same as white wolf's, and recognize if NOTHING ELSE that we voted coordinators in because we trust their opinion and about EIGHTY PERCENT OF THEM THINK THIS SHOULD BE. Why would you effectively hire twelve advisors and then ignore them when nine of them give you the same goddamn advice? Owbn needs this prop, whether or not you STs that pass out paths like candy (and i know you're out there, i've seen the numbers) beleive that the coord dick should be allowed near your precious ruby sphincters.
St. Petersburg, FL - USA, Faces of ChangeAgainstI support maintaining genre and enforcing a limit on Paths of Enlightenment outside of their normal societies.I am not disagreeing with what the proposal intends to do, just how it is worded. The conscerns brought up with the Lilins in the Sabbat and the Warrior/Ectasy in the Setites still stand. The social stigma for being on a path outside of the appropriate sect needs to be reworked.
Los Angeles, CA - USA, La Sangre De Los AngelesAgainst
Saint Paul, MN - USA, Obsidian TowersAgainstStatus cap AND Notoriety is too much. One or other. Creation of yet another category of voting R&U is going too far in the direction of central control by Council. There is no evidence that there is a huge Path problem throughout the network although there may be problems in specific chronicles.
Stockton, CA - USA, Stockton by NightAgainstHow do we know who will be on Council tomorrow? How do we know what great stories will be destroyed out of spite? Maybe we can just be better at leaning on people who abuse being on a Path.
Milwaukee, WI - USA, Nocturnal RaptureAgainstAgree with Green Bay, Kenosha and Winona...you guys summed up all my points...thank you!
Duluth, MN - USA, Thicker than BloodForI am changing my opinion because I think that this is the right thing and I am very tired of paths. I want to see more wassail because they can't get onto a path in the Cam. I have only EVER seen one character enter wassail in all my years of playing and that was in a Sabbat game..it was pretty damn cool though...
Philadelphia, PA - USA, NusquamAgainst
Chicago, IL - USA, Dark RequiemAgainstKeno says it best.
Fredericksburg, VA - USA, Caine's Chosen: Liberty in DeathForI gotta go with KoNY on this one, largely because Council couldn't find it's ass with both hands and a map.
Winona, MN - USA, Winona Dark HavenAgainstSee Winona Howls
Auburn, CA - USA, Lux TenebrasAgainstWhile we are not opposed to the idea of better handling paths, many of our staff feel that this is not the answer. If we accept one thing in this proposal we have to accept it all. Most of us like some parts but not the whole beast in its entirety.
Norwalk, CT - USA, Rails of RevolutionAgainst
San Francisco, CA - USA, Always Comes EveningForIf they had been enforced the first time, this wouldn't be an issue.

And page 15 does NOT say ''it's okay for cammies to be on paths.'' It says that some do exist and either they are reclusive elders who don't come to court, sect defectors, or spies. That does not mean that everyone and their packmate can go on a path of enlightenment and be Harpies and Princes. It says that the rare cainite will fit in better but will not have an EASY time of it. PRINCES will not TRUST the cainite (not how it doesn't say the ''PRINCE WILL BE ON A PATH TOO, CAUSE IT'S KEWL'') either cause he's scared it'll be a masquerade breaching monster or will turn him into one.

Once again, because the books do everything but say ''HEY One World By Night! Camarilla Vampires should not be on paths'' it's okay for all of them to do so.

Atlanta, GA - USA, Whispers of AtlantaAgainst
Fargo, ND - USA, Within Shadow's ReachForIt sounds like it would be a good first step to fixing many greater problems. It sounds harsh, but the social stigma of being on a path in the Cam should blow. For example if I have a Tremere prince and he frenzies at a the drop of a hat because he is on PIV he is in all likelyhood not going to be getting a whole lot of status, and if there is a Brujah prince on PIV, nobody is going to want to talk to him for the frenzing and breaking them.-Austin
Cincinnati, OH - USA, Shadows of CincinnatiAgainstpg 15, Chaining the Beast, ''Camarilla Path Practitioners'' - the listing of Paths acceptable to the Camarilla should include these. I agree these should be few and far between (and I would like to see grandfathering of current characters with a vote to teach - which would force a very good story and reason to be provided for such a conversion). The status cap doesn't make any sense ICly (although banning inhumane characters from getting certain status traits is perfectly acceptable and I would like to see this, ie: feared, resourceful, etc. ok - but cherished, and trustworthy not so much). The notoriety flaw is something I also cannot agree with, because I feel it's a sloppy ''wanna-be band-aid'' approach and not well thought-out. I also highly disagree with the standpoint of voting yes when there are things about the proposal that people don't like and want to just fix later. You are accepting this proposal as is, and 'hammering out the details later' isn't any reasonable way to approach a solution.
Columbus, OH - USA, Columbus in DarknessAgainstI like the concept but there are a number of things I dislike. It feels way to harsh on RP to me especially for pc's who have been around for the last 3-5 years and have already survived switching to the paths and made themselves princes or what have you.
Springfield, IL - USA, Capitol City CauldronAgainst
Washington, DC - USA, Shadows on the MallForI'm not a fan of the status cap, or noteriety flaw.In fact should this pass I may very well try to alter that later on after seeing how things run.

With that said, I'm voting for this proposal simply because I feel that paths are abused, both in the number of cam characters on them, and the rollplay I have seen from some of those on paths. It's sad that we have to go to this extent to regulate something that ST's should be able to do on thier own.

Phoenix, AZ - USA, Secundus SurrectumForI'm tired of Giovanni on Lillith. Brujah on Nordic Paths. Schismatics on Path of Blood. Fix it. You are inhumane, and should be treated as such. Social stigmata is what it's all about. Now... if we could only get a Flaw in place for the ''Socially Shunned'' Caitiff...
Kenosha, WI - USA, Memento MoriAgainstI don't think you can easily explain to council all the dramatic role-play one has done in order to convert to a path, and I also think any already R&U character will never pass a Path vote simply because they are already R&U for other reasons. ''Sorry, you had incredible role-play and your reasons for conversion were great, and yes, I know you won all the chops in order to convert, but council said no... so either stick with humanity or wassail out.'' Yecch!
Green Bay, WI - USA, Shattered DreamsAgainstI can not vote for any proposal that forces the PCs from a game that I run to accept a flaw. It is my Job as a storyteller to issue out flaws when I feel that they have been earned.I have no issues with the rest of the proposal.
Harrisonburg, VA: Death in the ValleyForIt's a problem. This is a solution I agree with. It's NOT Kewl to be on a path that you shouldn't be...yet it's played as such.
Iowa City, IA - USA, L'Ange NoirAgainstas much as I agree with the idea behind this prop, I don't think the current execution of it is the answer to the problem.
Northern Virginia, VA - USA, Night FallsAgainst
Edwardsville, IL - USA, Caught in Eternal TwilightAgainstSee Kenosha MM and Columbus. In discussing the ''problem'' it became apparent that the issue here derives from the fact that many chronicles do not enforce paths and require path checks. In fact, it became apparent that some feel that being on a path is a license to rationalize diablorie in spite of the language on LoTN p. 216. In this organization, the preferred solution should be a local tightening of the house rules to give paths teeth, not a global mandate limiting everyone because some games allow paths to be candy machines.
Head CoordAbstainI feel this is the best resolution that I've seen so far. In the 7 years I've ST'd, I've seen far too many characters using ''stats'' inappropriately and not roleplaying what's on the sheet or simply tacking things together do ''explain'' something they're not going to roleplay anyway. A sheet should be a statistical representation of the character's being, an oversimplification of a person's moral fiber. When I see someone I should be able to jot down flaws/merits/path on a piece of paper without actually SEEING the sheet if they're playing a character (ala theatre). I fully encourage any issues to be worked out so rules can be made to make up for a lack of roleplay.
AHC 1ForI believe this is an appropriate measure to insure the rarity of Paths while also a) reinforcing the importance of maintaining Humanity in the Camarilla and b) reinforcing the importance of specific Paths to the ideology of the Sabbat. All of the Coordinators of OWBN support this proposal, and most of the Genre coords helped author it.
Chronicle/Position UnknownAgainstI would love to see this re-vamped and resubmitted.
Chronicle/Position UnknownAgainstI would love to see this re-vamped and resubmitted.
Chronicle/Position UnknownAgainst
Chronicle/Position UnknownAgainst
Chronicle/Position UnknownForFinally.
Chronicle/Position UnknownForFinally.
Chronicle/Position UnknownAgainstSee Kenosha MM
Chronicle/Position UnknownAgainstSee Kenosha MM
Chronicle/Position UnknownForPlayers on Paths should be Rare. Social ramifications for Paths should be harsh.
Chronicle/Position UnknownForPlayers on Paths should be Rare. Social ramifications for Paths should be harsh.
Chronicle/Position UnknownFor
Chronicle/Position UnknownFor
Chronicle/Position UnknownForAnything that helps stop people from bending genre over the table and raping it in the ass.....
Chronicle/Position UnknownForAnything that helps stop people from bending genre over the table and raping it in the ass.....
Chronicle/Position UnknownForLike it was even necessary to ask.
Chronicle/Position UnknownForLike it was even necessary to ask.
Chronicle/Position UnknownForAlthough I think the status cap and the flaw is a bit much, that's something that can be ironed out later. I think we need this.Yes, that's right, we CAN fix it later. If you cut your finger off, do you let it bleed on the way to the hospital, or do you put pressure on the wound until a more permanent solution can be put into effect?
Chronicle/Position UnknownForAlthough I think the status cap and the flaw is a bit much, that's something that can be ironed out later. I think we need this.Yes, that's right, we CAN fix it later. If you cut your finger off, do you let it bleed on the way to the hospital, or do you put pressure on the wound until a more permanent solution can be put into effect?
Chronicle/Position UnknownAgainstWe feel the status cap and Notoriety flaw are clumsy at best, however, we will be proposing that out-of-genre paths become Rare as item #1 indicates in this proposal.
Chronicle/Position UnknownAgainstWe feel the status cap and Notoriety flaw are clumsy at best, however, we will be proposing that out-of-genre paths become Rare as item #1 indicates in this proposal.
Chronicle/Position UnknownAbstainThis one is pretty tough. I would LOVE to see more genre enforcement, but I think this is something the coords could largely handle IC. It should at least be set up IC first. How do we explain inhumane leaders issuing proclamations about the need for humanity in the Camarilla, for example? Of course, if the coords HAD taken such a position, they would have received fire for ''exceeding their authority'' and ''limiting people's role-playing.'' I'm all for the idea here, but the prop just seems off. Maybe if we broke it down, and sent it through a piece at a time ... some is better than none, after all.
Chronicle/Position UnknownAbstainThis one is pretty tough. I would LOVE to see more genre enforcement, but I think this is something the coords could largely handle IC. It should at least be set up IC first. How do we explain inhumane leaders issuing proclamations about the need for humanity in the Camarilla, for example? Of course, if the coords HAD taken such a position, they would have received fire for ''exceeding their authority'' and ''limiting people's role-playing.'' I'm all for the idea here, but the prop just seems off. Maybe if we broke it down, and sent it through a piece at a time ... some is better than none, after all.
Chronicle/Position UnknownAgainstWe are in agreeance with Paths in a Cam game be an R&U vote. But we do not see the logic behind the status cap and Flaw.
Chronicle/Position UnknownAgainstWe are in agreeance with Paths in a Cam game be an R&U vote. But we do not see the logic behind the status cap and Flaw.
Chronicle/Position UnknownAgainstRight idea, wrong approach. Flaw + Status cap = Too much. I'd be in favor of the Status cap alone, but not the Flaw. Also, I don't believe we need to vote on every character on an 'out of genre' path, and that the definition of out of genre is too broad as well. Clans on Clan-specific paths shouldn't count as out of genre, as a previous proposal has clarified. See ''RURUClarify'' under R&U votes.
Chronicle/Position UnknownAgainstRight idea, wrong approach. Flaw + Status cap = Too much. I'd be in favor of the Status cap alone, but not the Flaw. Also, I don't believe we need to vote on every character on an 'out of genre' path, and that the definition of out of genre is too broad as well. Clans on Clan-specific paths shouldn't count as out of genre, as a previous proposal has clarified. See ''RURUClarify'' under R&U votes.
Chronicle/Position UnknownAgainstthe only part of this prop i like is actually the r&u portion. it will, in my opinion, allow this problem to be nipped in the bud by keeping it from growing further, while bringing to light the fact that the genre coordinators felt it was a large enough problem to bring it to a vote like this. also, in my opinion, this genre is being ignored primarily by those that wish to use it to some kind of statistical advantage, using the numbers ben russell provided council many months ago, showing that at that time approximately 80-90% of pcs on out of genre paths were 8th and 9th gen. hopefully making it harder to bend this ''rule'' will in turn help fix it. but, i cannot support the prop as it stands.
Chronicle/Position UnknownAgainstthe only part of this prop i like is actually the r&u portion. it will, in my opinion, allow this problem to be nipped in the bud by keeping it from growing further, while bringing to light the fact that the genre coordinators felt it was a large enough problem to bring it to a vote like this. also, in my opinion, this genre is being ignored primarily by those that wish to use it to some kind of statistical advantage, using the numbers ben russell provided council many months ago, showing that at that time approximately 80-90% of pcs on out of genre paths were 8th and 9th gen. hopefully making it harder to bend this ''rule'' will in turn help fix it. but, i cannot support the prop as it stands.
LONEForPeople feel that this takes away from a chronicals power. If, as STs path genre was enforced, this prop wouldn't exist. By and large STs have allowed far to many people to be on out of Genre paths, for far too long. Obviously, some form of genre prop has to pass to do this as sts won't. Being on an inappropriate path is BAD you are feared, shunned, and looked down on for it; Noone SHOULD trust you; You have chosen NOT to follow your parties party line.
Chronicle/Position UnknownForIt's been a long time coming.
Chronicle/Position UnknownForIt's been a long time coming.
Votes ReceivedVoted NOT Received
Atlanta, GA - USA, Whispers of AtlantaAllentown, PA - USA, Steel Valley by Night
Auburn, CA - USA, Lux TenebrasAlto Tietê, SP - Brazil, Sang Royal
Chicago, IL - USA, Dark RequiemAnn Arbor, MI - USA, Tower of Broken Glass
Cincinnati, OH - USA, Shadows of CincinnatiAnnapolis, MD - USA, Vitae Aeternus
Columbus, OH - USA, Columbus in DarknessAtlanta, GA - USA, Demise of the Sovereign
Duluth, MN - USA, Thicker than BloodBaltimore, MD - USA, Dark Harbor
Edwardsville, IL - USA, Caught in Eternal TwilightBartow, FL - USA, Polk County Prophecies
Fargo, ND - USA, Within Shadow's ReachBerkeley, CA - USA, Wasting the Dawn
Fredericksburg, VA - USA, Caine's Chosen: Liberty in DeathBloomington, IL - USA, Zephyr of Darkness
Green Bay, WI - USA, Shattered DreamsBoston, MA - USA, Reclaimed
Kenosha, WI - USA, Memento MoriBradenton, FL - USA, Chaos & Entropy
Los Angeles, CA - USA, La Sangre De Los AngelesBrasília, DF - Brazil, Caldas Novas
Milwaukee, WI - USA, Nocturnal RaptureBrasília, DF - Brazil, Pacis Aeternae
New York City, NY - USA, Kings of New YorkBridgeport, CT - USA, Bridgeport by Night: The Broken City
Northern Virginia, VA - USA, Night FallsCambridge, MA - USA, The Midnight Rose
Norwalk, CT - USA, Rails of RevolutionCampinas, SP - Brazil, Império das Cinzas
Saint Paul, MN - USA, Obsidian TowersCape Cod, MA - USA, Rage Across the Cape
San Francisco, CA - USA, Always Comes EveningCedar Falls, IA - USA, Blackhawk Co. by Night
Springfield, IL - USA, Capitol City CauldronCedar Rapids, IA - USA, Five Nights
Stockton, CA - USA, Stockton by NightChicago, IL - USA, New Moon Rising
Winona, MN - USA, Winona Dark HavenChicago, IL - USA, Prey to Predator
AHC 1Cincinnati, OH - USA, Rage and Fury
Head CoordClarksburg, WV - USA, Echoes of Silent Valleys
Cleveland, OH - USA, Carpe Noctum
Cleveland, OH - USA, Heartland Alliance
Cleveland, OH - USA, Under an Eerie Moon
Columbus, OH - USA, Wyld Prophets
Curitiba, PR - Brazil, Curitiba By Night
Dayton, OH - USA, Dying Embers
Decatur, IL - USA, The Chaos Within
Denver, CO - USA, Front Range Sabbat
Dois Vizinhos, PR - Brazil, The Kingdom by Night - Immortal Royalty
Dubuque, IA - USA, Kingdom of Ashes
Fortaleza, CE - Brazil, Land of The Sun
Gainesville, FL - USA, Won't Back Down
Gary, IN - USA, Shattered Souls
Gimli, MB - Canada, Sang Nordique
Grady, GA - USA, Whispers of Grady
Griffin, GA - USA, Immortal Nights Theater
Hartford, CT - USA, Dark Colony
Indianapolis, IN - USA, Past is Prologue
João Pessoa, PB - Brazil, Eternal Shadows
Joinville, SC - Brazil, Danse Macabre
La Crosse, WI - USA, The Rivers Edge
Lakeland, FL - USA, Lagos de los Muertos
Lancaster, OH - USA, Mountains Dark Heart
Lancaster, OH - USA, Never Ending Nights
Lewiston/Auburn, ME - USA, Shadows and Light
Lexington, KY - USA, Panders Playground
Londrina, PR - Brazil, Blood and Vendetta
Los Angeles, CA - USA, Dark Side of the Moon
Macon, GA - USA, Stolen Hours
Madison, Wi - USA, Black Crusade
Maldonado - Uruguay, Maldonado by Night: Magus et Artifex
Martinsburg, WV - USA, Martinsburg by Night
Mossoro, RN - Brazil, Mossoro by Night
Mt. Dora, FL - USA, Mutual Alliance
Nashville, IN - USA, Tea With Dragons
Natal, RN - Brazil, Legacy of Blood
New Orleans, LA - USA, Long Night
New Rochelle, NY - USA, Seasons of Strange
Orland Park, IL - USA, Enigmas of Rage
Ouro Preto, MG - Brazil, Dying of the Light
Peoria, IL - USA, The Far Dawn
Peoria, IL - USA, The Shattered Mirror
Philadelphia, PA - USA, Honor in the Shadows
Phoenix, AZ - USA, Unchained Arizona
Plainfield, IL - USA, Obsidian Shadows
Portland, ME - USA, Blackened Veins
Porto Alegre, RS - Brazil, Solo Doentio
Providence, RI - USA, Hidden Flame
Recife, PE - Brazil, Pernambuco by Night: Forever Haunted
Rio de Janeiro, RJ - Brazil, City of Wonders
Rio Grande, RS - Brazil, Sobre a Areia Sempre Hostil
Rockland, NY - USA, Under The Rock
Rohnert Park, CA - USA, Shadows Crossing
Sacramento, CA - USA, Sacramento By Night
Salvador, BA - Brazil, Veritas Salvatore
San Antonio, TX - USA, Libertatis Cunabula
São Paulo, SP - Brazil, São Paulo by Night
Savannah, GA - USA, City of Shadows
Sheboygan, WI - USA, Blood on the Lake
Springfield, OH - USA, Ohio Knights Sabbat
St. Augustine, FL - USA, On Haunted Ground
St. Louis, MO - USA, Shadows of St. Louis
Tampa, FL - USA, Orlando: Magic Kingdom
Tampa, FL - USA, Tampa Bay by Night
Twin Cities, MN, - USA, The Last Stand
Vale do Itajaí, SC - Brazil, Fear of the Dark
Vale do Paraíba, SP - Brazil, Vale Sangrento
Vitória, ES - Brazil, Blood and Darkness
Washington, DC - USA, Shadows on the Horizon
Wichita, KS - Rebellion in the Shadows
Worcester County, MA - USA, Quabbin
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